IRC log of dig on 2006-07-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- topic is: Tabulator meeting http://dig.csail.mit.edu/cgi-bin/roundup.cgi/tabulator/">http://dig.csail.mit.edu/cgi-bin/roundup.cgi/tabulator/ (DIG http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ )
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- Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS sheets lkagal eikeon sandro crowell_work
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- timbl has changed the topic to: Decentralized Information Group at MIT CSAIL
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- Some people just arrived 'for the DIG meeting"
- 15:26:29 [RalphS]
- RalphS has changed the topic to: "24 July DIG meeting topic to be Fresnel" -- https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2006-July/000956.html
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- 15:29:51 [RalphS]
- zakim, this will be dig
- 15:29:51 [Zakim]
- ok, RalphS, I see DIG_weekly()11:30AM already started
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- +MIT531
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- Meeting: DIG Weekly
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- Previous: 2006-07-17 https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2006-July/000966.html
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- 15:33:48 [RalphS]
- zakim, mit531 has Rubin Meschian, Rob Gonzalez, Yosi, Carlos, Lydia, Aviv, Harvey, Ryan, Elias Torres, Jesus, David, Richard Rogers, Ben Hyche, Tim, Ralph
- 15:33:48 [Zakim]
- +Rubin, Meschian, Rob, Gonzalez, Yosi, Carlos, Lydia, Aviv, Harvey, Ryan, Elias, Torres, Jesus, David, Richard, Rogers, Ben, Hyche, Tim, Ralph; got it
- 15:34:10 [RalphS]
- Regrets: Danny
- 15:34:44 [ryanlee]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/Talks/0724-fresnel/
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- 15:35:45 [RalphS]
- Topic: Fresnel Introduction
- 15:37:19 [bhyde]
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- 15:37:36 [RalphS]
- Ryan: a Fresnel engine should implment everything that's defined in core
- 15:37:55 [RalphS]
- ... an application that uses fresnel-extended should still be able to be viewed in a core-only engine
- 15:45:12 [RalphS]
- Ryan: in general, any CSS that styles the output of a Fresnel engine will be tied to the way that implementation produces its XML
- 15:45:37 [RalphS]
- Ben: how about an engine that generates an event stream rather than XML?
- 15:45:46 [RalphS]
- Ryan: I only implemented XML output
- 15:46:06 [RalphS]
- Ben: if you were going to do further processing then you'd likely want something other than XML out
- 15:46:14 [RalphS]
- Tim: maybe an XML DOM that you work on directly
- 15:47:42 [RalphS]
- Ryan: Emmanuel is the primary designer of FSL, so IsaViz fully implements FSL.
- 15:48:33 [RalphS]
- ... DERI never released source to Arago, so Simile considers that implementation to be dead
- 15:48:51 [RalphS]
- ... monica schrafel's group is also doing some implementation
- 15:49:34 [RalphS]
- zakim, Rob just arrived in mit531
- 15:49:34 [Zakim]
- Rob was already listed in MIT531, RalphS
- 15:49:41 [RalphS]
- zakim, RobCrowell just arrived in mit531
- 15:49:41 [Zakim]
- +RobCrowell; got it
- 15:50:00 [RalphS]
- Tim: how did you do the 3-across formatting?
- 15:50:12 [RalphS]
- Ryan: a subLens of foaf:knows with an attached CSS class
- 15:50:25 [RalphS]
- ... so each knows is a floating subbox
- 15:51:10 [RalphS]
- ... ~4 lenses in FOAF example 'after.png'
- 15:51:20 [RalphS]
- Timbl: [notes the comma-separated lists]
- 15:51:45 [RalphS]
- ... what's the likelihood of clashes between CSS classes?
- 15:51:56 [RalphS]
- Ryan: very probable for large cases
- 15:52:19 [RalphS]
- Elias: how about some namespacing?
- 15:52:28 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 15:52:29 [RalphS]
- Ryan: we did talk about namespaces in CSS classe
- 15:52:42 [RalphS]
- ... we're not aware of a formal conclusion on CSS namespaces
- 15:52:53 [RalphS]
- TimBL: in Tabulator we want to use several lenses and combine them
- 15:52:59 [RalphS]
- ... how possible would this be?
- 15:53:35 [RalphS]
- ... have you looked into combining views?
- 15:53:49 [RalphS]
- Ryan: we've not looked at combining
- 15:53:54 [crowell]
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- 15:53:55 [RalphS]
- ... our primary use case was viewing known data
- 15:54:09 [RalphS]
- Tim: any way to link to useful lenses from an ontology?
- 15:54:15 [RalphS]
- Ryan: we've not thought about that
- 15:54:30 [RalphS]
- Tim: but you could include the fresnel vocabulary directly in your ontology
- 15:54:41 [bhyde]
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- 15:55:04 [RalphS]
- Elias: any fallback mechanism for rendering some properties and falling back to default Longwell rendering of remaining properties?
- 15:55:17 [RalphS]
- Ryan: Longwell has its own fallback but there is no generic/default lense
- 15:55:22 [RalphS]
- s/lense/lens/
- 15:55:37 [RalphS]
- ... at the moment, your browser is responsible for its own default lens
- 15:55:44 [RalphS]
- Ben: we wouldn't know how to write a default lens
- 15:56:01 [RalphS]
- TimBL: what if a resource is an instance of multiple classes?
- 15:56:13 [RalphS]
- Ryan: there is a conflict resolution mechanism implemented.
- 15:56:25 [RalphS]
- ... for example, we prefer a lens for an instance over a lens for a class
- 15:56:37 [RalphS]
- ... full mechanism is not formally documented
- 15:57:04 [RalphS]
- TimBL: how about an icon for switching between lenses?
- 15:57:08 [RalphS]
- Ryan: interesting idea
- 15:57:27 [RalphS]
- TimBL: e.g. for switching between a 'business card' view and some other view?
- 15:57:46 [RalphS]
- Ryan: sounds like a reasonable extension for Fresnel but wouldn't be part of core
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- 15:58:06 [RalphS]
- TimBL: how much can you do with just classes and how often do you need more complicated selectors?
- 15:58:21 [RalphS]
- Ryan: we're still hoping for more authors of lenses to step forward
- 15:58:38 [RalphS]
- Aviv: any computability issues for large sets of lenses and large data?
- 15:59:04 [RalphS]
- Ryan: in Longwell, Fresnel is just one processing step and we pre-process as much as we can [of the lenses]
- 15:59:13 [RalphS]
- ... we don't yet have a large set of lenses to test
- 15:59:28 [RalphS]
- Elias: we have an ATOM ontology with a stylesheet
- 15:59:36 [RalphS]
- ... might be interesting to write a Fresnel lens for ATOM
- 16:00:01 [EliasT]
- http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html
- 16:00:09 [DanC]
- (I'm pretty sure the Atom/OWL thing is not endorsed by the IETF AtomPub WG; i.e. it's not official)
- 16:00:38 [RalphS]
- Ryan: is there an official translation of the ATOM ontology to OWL?
- 16:00:45 [RalphS]
- Elias: we have an ad-hoc translation
- 16:00:54 [RalphS]
- zakim, Lalana just arrived in mit531
- 16:00:54 [Zakim]
- +Lalana; got it
- 16:01:04 [RalphS]
- Rubin: any work on editing data?
- 16:01:18 [RalphS]
- Ryan: the Olin person was interested in looking into that
- 16:01:24 [RalphS]
- ... just in the beginning stages
- 16:01:31 [RalphS]
- ... Simile hasn't looked into editing
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- 16:01:51 [RalphS]
- [Rubin takes the projector]
- 16:02:23 [RalphS]
- Rubin, RobG, Elias all part of IBM's Semantic Web Technologies group
- 16:02:29 [EliasT]
- Rouben Meschian
- 16:02:38 [RalphS]
- s/Rubin/Rouben/g
- 16:03:10 [RalphS]
- Rouben: we were often given new data sets to visualize and had to write custom displays for each; that's what got us interested in Fresnel
- 16:03:32 [RalphS]
- Elias: Dennis Quan made us aware of all the SemWeb work, including RDF and Haystack
- 16:04:11 [RalphS]
- ... we looked at Haystack for bit then decided to do the opposite approach starting from eclipse
- 16:04:45 [RalphS]
- ... what Rouben is demoing is a java app running in eclipse
- 16:05:08 [RalphS]
- Rouben: I wrote my own Fresnel engine in java
- 16:05:19 [RalphS]
- ... it's very simple, doesn't support everything Ryan's does
- 16:05:29 [RalphS]
- ... so probably I'll switch to Ryan's engine
- 16:05:41 [RalphS]
- ... I'm parsing the CSS myself and applying it to the widgets; it's a lot of work
- 16:06:21 [EliasT]
- Note that IBM's fresnel implementation does both the parsing and rendering in Java using SWT (Standard Widget Toolkit)
- 16:07:00 [DanC]
- (SWT? hmm.. http://www.eclipse.org/swt/widgets/ )
- 16:07:13 [EliasT]
- that's the correct link.
- 16:08:05 [RalphS]
- Rouben: my final application is likely to be a combination of hard coded rendering and Fresnel
- 16:08:27 [RalphS]
- ... for editing, I examine the ontology
- 16:08:44 [RalphS]
- ... looking for single-values vs. multi-valued properties
- 16:08:59 [RalphS]
- TimBL: what is your data store/
- 16:09:19 [RalphS]
- Elias: the demo is modelled from Haystack; the edits are going to a local store
- 16:09:27 [RalphS]
- ... we expect to do some sort of replication
- 16:10:12 [RalphS]
- Ben: how much did you have to augment the ontology to make the editing work nicely?
- 16:10:14 [RalphS]
- Rouben: very little
- 16:10:43 [RalphS]
- ... I could do validation by looking at the base datatypes but I wouldn't know about user-defined types
- 16:11:19 [ryanlee]
- lenses and formats used in the Tim's FOAF profile example: http://simile.mit.edu/repository/longwell-demos/dig/fresnel.n3
- 16:11:49 [RalphS]
- Elias: but our ontologies are very explicit; we will put as much [OWL] as we need to support the editing
- 16:11:56 [RalphS]
- ... but we have not extended the vocabulary
- 16:12:10 [RalphS]
- ... we use jaster to generate beans from OWL
- 16:14:06 [EliasT]
- -> http://jastor.sf.net Jastor
- 16:14:26 [RalphS]
- Yosi: when a lens is being selected, does it handle subClassOf relations?
- 16:14:33 [RalphS]
- Ryan: no, that's best left to an inferencer
- 16:14:51 [RalphS]
- Rouben: we do handle subclass hierarchies and we select the most-specific lens
- 16:15:33 [RalphS]
- RobG: [to Yosi] were you asking about explicit classes or also classes specialized using OWL restrictions?
- 16:15:51 [RalphS]
- Yosi: just noted that OWL class graphs can be quite complicated
- 16:16:05 [RalphS]
- Aviv: [something about inserting literals in java]
- 16:16:28 [RalphS]
- ... can you put in a script tag as a literal, for example?
- 16:16:39 [RalphS]
- Ryan: perhaps, with enough escaping. We haven't tried that sort of thing.
- 16:17:32 [RalphS]
- Rouben: have you thought about adding query results as the property value?
- 16:17:42 [RalphS]
- Ryan: we've discussed something related to that
- 16:18:53 [RalphS]
- Ben: [to the IBM folk] have you had any success getting others to write lenses? Our impression in Simile is that lens writing has a high learning curve
- 16:19:02 [RalphS]
- ... most of our real lenses are very long
- 16:19:28 [RalphS]
- TimBL: perhaps provide some easy 'getting started' examples; e.g. make the background green for this class of resource
- 16:20:38 [RalphS]
- Rouben: we were interested in dynamic displays such as this in order to allow a scientist to add properties to the base applications that we write
- 16:21:01 [RalphS]
- ... a wizard would help a scientist add properties with styling information
- 16:21:28 [RalphS]
- ... the direction we'd like to go is to provide [wizards to] support users adding to lenses
- 16:21:57 [RalphS]
- ... we'd like to help users find and customize existing lenses
- 16:22:30 [RalphS]
- Aviv: what about more complicated things such as recursive lenses?
- 16:23:01 [DanC]
- (odds of a DIG meeting next week, 31 Jul? )
- 16:23:05 [RalphS]
- Elias: we did some of this with a generic browser where we just had a depth limit after which the browser opened a new page
- 16:23:14 [DanC]
- agenda + DIG meeting 31 Jul?
- 16:23:46 [RalphS]
- Aviv: how heavy is the core? it a big thing for a browser to load as javascript?
- 16:24:23 [RalphS]
- Ryan: it could be big by some measures but it's not a huge .jar
- 16:25:14 [RalphS]
- Aviv: [clarifying] given parsed RDF data and parsed Fresnel data, how big is the rest of the work to produce HTML ?
- 16:26:57 [RalphS]
- Aviv: how about a property that declares a property to be editable?
- 16:27:02 [RalphS]
- ... for literals
- 16:27:33 [RalphS]
- Rouben: how do you specify what is permitted in the ontology?
- 16:28:11 [ryanlee]
- fresnel is approximately 15,000 lines of code, on a first pass shell script calculation
- 16:28:16 [RalphS]
- Elias: we'd also like to be able to specify the UI for editing
- 16:28:38 [bhyde]
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- 16:29:03 [RalphS]
- Aviv: I'm just interesting in a way to have the UI indicate that some properties are editable and others are not
- 16:29:38 [RalphS]
- Ben: the problem is larger because the whole thing should appear as an edit transaction when the user presses 'submit'
- 16:30:10 [crowell]
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- 16:30:18 [RalphS]
- Rouben: my example only does editing of a single property at a time
- 16:30:31 [RalphS]
- ... it does not handle consistency validation across multiple properties
- 16:30:51 [DanC]
- (er... I only allocated an hour to this meeting.)
- 16:31:36 [DanC]
- timbl, your calendar has a Tabulator meeting at 4pET this Thursday. I'm considering taking Thursday off, and I'd like to know the odds of that actually happening.
- 16:31:55 [DanC]
- there's this FOXHOLES thing that I thought was on your calendar but isn't any more.
- 16:32:19 [DanC]
- and there's the HCLSIG discussion of LSIDs and URIs on 31 July. (perhaps for #tagmem)
- 16:32:21 [RalphS]
- TimBL: [something about editing when there are thousands of instances]
- 16:33:47 [timbl]
- You can use copy and paste ... first "copy htis resource" then "ink to copied resource".
- 16:33:59 [EliasT]
- RalphS, is the meeting time over?
- 16:34:21 [DanC]
- the scheduled meeting time is over. a critical mass of participants seem willing to continue, though.
- 16:34:42 [EliasT]
- k. I just want to be polite, since IBM folks (guests) are talking too much.
- 16:35:03 [RalphS]
- Yosi: what if the ontology permits up to 4 values?
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- 16:35:32 [RalphS]
- RobG: we don't do OWL Full inferencing
- 16:35:41 [RalphS]
- zakim, next agendum
- 16:35:42 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "DIG meeting 31 Jul?" taken up [from DanC]
- 16:35:50 [RalphS]
- TimBL: regrets for 31 July
- 16:36:05 [DanC]
- I'm inclined to cancel 31 Jul
- 16:37:22 [DanC]
- on 7 Aug, I'd like to be travelling back from Wikimania, but that looks unlikely. The Extreme Markup conference is roughly in the same state.
- 16:37:52 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 16:38:01 [RalphS]
- RESOLVED: no meeting 31 July; next meeting 7 Aug, Ralph to chair
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- -MIT531
- 16:38:15 [Zakim]
- DIG_weekly()11:30AM has ended
- 16:38:16 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Rubin, Meschian, Rob, Gonzalez, Yosi, Carlos, Lydia, Aviv, Harvey, Ryan, Elias, Torres, Jesus, David, Richard, Rogers, Ben, Hyche, Tim, Ralph, RobCrowell, DanC,
- 16:38:17 [bhyde]
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- ... Lalana
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- 17:06:46 [evoli]
- well, folding works now. something about "display" attribute of elements baffled me for a while
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- 17:44:51 [timbl]
- Evoli, folding in checked-in code?
- 17:45:08 [evoli]
- checked-in code?
- 17:45:46 [timbl]
- evoli: well, folding works now. something about "display" attribute of elements baffled me for a while
- 17:45:51 [timbl]
- 13:06
- 17:45:59 [evoli]
- ah that. yes, it's checked in now
- 17:46:07 [evoli]
- so far it displays the first 3 objects of the predicate
- 17:46:36 [evoli]
- what baffled me was that the predicate cell showed that it had a rowspan of '3', for example, but looked like it had rowspan of much more
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- 18:13:17 [ericP]
- yosi_s, data, query and contentious inferences all in one convenient package: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JulSep/0013
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- 18:41:09 [hmslydia]
- ryanlee, could aviv and I (Lydia) possibly meet with you sometime soon re: Fresnel?
- 18:42:08 [ryanlee]
- sure; in a meeting right now, can we work out a time a bit later?
- 18:43:07 [hmslydia]
- sure thing. I'm in the g515 lounge and i'm the only girl, so you'll know who I am. Thanks!
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- sheets, you awake?
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- 19:27:38 [evoli]
- there are infobubbles in timelineView. they work *exactly* like the bubbles in mapView.
- 19:28:05 [evoli]
- (as far as content goes. the info bubbles aren't the same info bubbles from google.)
- 19:29:00 [evoli]
- (thanks jambo)
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- 19:42:11 [DanC]
- he runs the "interesting people" list, yes?
- 19:42:55 [DanC]
- danny cites that list now and again
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- 20:04:04 [timbl]
- evoli?
- 20:08:06 [evoli]
- hello
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