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15:41:51 <timbl> Darn, the tabalator doesn't seem to follow links from HTML files any more
15:42:01 <timbl> rel=alternate etc
15:42:16 <timbl> Example: http://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proceedings:DV2
15:42:21 <timbl> no not that
15:42:28 <timbl> http://norman.walsh.name/knows/who#norman-walsh
15:42:43 <timbl> http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_Martin_Hepp
15:42:53 <timbl> those two I think need links through HTML
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16:24:40 <alerer> timbl, DanC: what do you think of full (maybe toggleable) tooltip help in tabulator?
16:25:04 <timbl> Like I said yesterday I Ytink it is a godo idea.
16:25:06 <alerer> so every element in the DOM has tooltips, so instead of having to read all these helpfiles, you can figure out how everything works just from that?
16:25:11 <DanC> er... is this different from what we talked about yesterday? it seems obviously good.
16:25:13 <timbl> Might be good to have a cookie option to turn it off
16:25:22 <alerer> yesterday we talked about just the icons
16:25:28 <alerer> in outliner
16:25:30 <alerer> I mean EVERYTHING
16:25:34 <timbl> like?
16:25:43 <timbl> "expand"
16:25:46 <timbl> would be good
16:25:52 <alerer> like the TDs in the outliner, the "View and save query" button, the URI bar, etc.
16:25:54 <alerer> not just icons
16:26:03 <alerer> I already did it for icons.
16:26:17 <timbl> checked in?
16:26:21 <alerer> it might be really helpful, as long as it could be turned off
16:26:26 <DanC> hmm... I wonder about the maintenance burden for EVERYTHING
16:26:46 <DanC> incorrect docs are sometimes worse than no docs
16:26:51 <alerer> yes
16:27:10 <alerer> but things like "Select this field to get its URI in the URI bar or to create a query."
16:27:14 <alerer> something along those lines
16:27:38 <alerer> I guess it might be hard to maintain, but we could make one file with all the tooltips
16:27:47 <alerer> and just stick them into the actual elements as variables
16:28:30 <alerer> like a property TR in the outliner view
16:28:46 <alerer> (that's a really bad tooltip explanation, I was just using it as an example)
16:30:44 <DanC> well, it serves as an example of why not do EVERYTHING; because we won't spend the time necessary to make them all definitely helpful
16:31:27 <alerer> true
16:31:34 <DanC> this is not a compelling argument, but something to consider.
16:32:03 <timbl> Maybe we should not tooltip text fields.
16:32:07 <alerer> yeah...I'm not sure tooltips everywhere is the way to go, but when I (and probably many/most) go to a website, I almost never read the helpfile
16:32:22 <alerer> and if there isn't something built in to teach me how to use it, I'll just give up
16:32:34 <timbl> If people don't know what would happen if they double clicked, we should add an icon, or context-menu, to do the thing, with atooltip
16:32:56 <alerer> yeah, that makes sense
16:33:07 <timbl> How about all icons?
16:33:49 <DanC> indeed, we shouldn't expect readers to read the helpfile. The helpfile is still valuable, though, (a) as a design record, and (b) for people that want to know what the tabulator does but don't want to use it just now. (e.g. they might want to quote the help file)
16:37:31 <alerer> indeed
16:37:51 <alerer> but tab should be usable without it...which it is not very
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16:39:52 <DanC> so I guess the bottom line is: if you're confident that a tooltip will improve usability, add it. But if you're not sure, maybe pass. And always think of ways of making the UI more obvious without any sort of docs.
16:59:37 <DanC> hmm... "Migrate Sourceforge bugs to Roundup" -- http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/ticket/1
17:28:53 <djweitzner> Tim?
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18:20:34 <timbl> danny?
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18:25:50 <djweitzner> Tim, still there?
18:27:16 <timbl> Hi, briefly yes
18:27:34 <timbl> I was going to head into wikimania for 4pm then back out
18:27:37 <djweitzner> tim for a quick call? a few loose ends to tie up
18:27:41 <djweitzner> ah
18:27:42 <timbl> what's up?
18:27:51 <djweitzner> some Chuck vest issues
18:27:57 <djweitzner> can I call you?
18:29:24 <timbl> +1 XXX XXX XXXX
18:29:38 <djweitzner> calling
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20:39:06 <jambo> r1949: Implemented mostly-done version of the key.  Need some good way of
20:39:06 <jambo> letting the view know that a query's name has changed -- possibly some kind of
20:39:06 <jambo> updateQuery function for query source / listener / view ?
20:39:19 <jambo> Without the ability to update a query, the key has no efficient way of knowing
20:39:20 <jambo> that a query's name has changed.
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