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12:50:35 <DIGlogger> DIGlogger (n=dig-logg@pink-panther.csail.mit.edu) has joined #dig
12:50:35 <leguin.freenode.net> topic is: Decentralized Information Group at MIT CSAIL (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ )
12:50:35 <leguin.freenode.net> Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS tlr lkagal sandro DanC eikeon evoli crowell_work 
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13:58:36 <evoli> 'lo
14:02:59 <DanC> hmm... dig meeting today?
14:05:27 <DanC> I see a propsed agenda from Ralph, so I guess so.
14:05:43 <DanC> (subject seems to have a typo: "2006-07-07 DIG proposed agenda")
14:07:59 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: 07 Aug DIG agenda https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2006-August/000978.html
14:08:11 <RalphS> oops, indeed, a typo in msg subject
14:08:27 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: DIG (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ ) meets today at 11:30aET (Mon, 7 Aug)
14:09:54 <DanC> Ralph, I got Zakim to read the agenda from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
14:10:36 <DanC> it reminded me that the telcon calendar doesn't use the RDF calendar vocab. I wonder if that's worth DIG time, or if that's just a W3C thing.
14:16:47 <evoli> DIGlogger: point
14:16:47 <evoli> I'm logging. I don't understand 'point', evoli.  Try /msg DIGlogger help
14:30:55 <RalphS> nice, Dan, re: Zakim reading from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
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15:30:14 <RalphS> zakim, this is dig
15:30:15 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; that matches DIG_weekly()11:30AM
15:30:21 <Zakim> +MIT531
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15:30:34 <RalphS> zakim, mit531 has Yosi, Ralph
15:30:34 <Zakim> +Yosi, Ralph; got it
15:30:52 <RalphS> Meeting: DIG Weekly
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15:31:14 <RalphS> Agenda: https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2006-August/000978.html
15:31:30 <RalphS> agenda+ Old action followup
15:31:46 <RalphS> agenda+ Followup to Fresnel discussion
15:31:52 <RalphS> agenda+ Around the table
15:32:05 <RalphS> agenda+ Tabulator work progress/plans
15:32:13 <RalphS> abenda+ dbview work progress/plans
15:32:24 <RalphS> agenda+ dbview work progress/plans
15:32:28 <RalphS> agenda+ tracker work status
15:33:15 <RalphS> zakim, mit531 also has Harvey, Rob, Sheets, Jim, Claudio, Jesus, Adam
15:33:16 <Zakim> +Harvey, Rob, Sheets, Jim, Claudio, Jesus, Adam; got it
15:33:50 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:33:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Old action followup" taken up [from RalphS]
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15:34:01 <Zakim> +DanC
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15:34:40 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ryan identify the important parts of breadcrumbs on swada to be backed-up
15:34:48 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ralph request the parts of swada identified by Ryan be added to T!Gs backup plan
15:34:56 <RalphS> ACTION: Ralph invite an Alloy person to demo in this meeting
15:34:57 <RalphS> -- continues
15:35:03 <RalphS> [PENDING] ACTION: Sandro to discuss fresnel/UI/etc with Ryan and TimBL and perhaps others; ETA: ~3 weeks
15:35:06 <RalphS> -- continues
15:35:29 <RalphS> ACTION: Sandro to discuss fresnel/UI/etc with Ryan and TimBL and perhaps others; ETA: ~3 weeks
15:36:18 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 3
15:36:18 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Around the table" taken up [from RalphS]
15:36:44 <DanC> fyi, tabulator issues by developer: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue?@columns=title,topic,id,activity,status,assignedto&@sort=priority&@group=assignedto&@filter=status&@pagesize=50&@startwith=0&status=-1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7&@dispname=Developer%20Status
15:37:55 <DanC> (I mostly failed to get what I needed via IRC last week; I needed phone contact.)
15:38:04 <RalphS> Adam: working on UI stuff, putting icons into different fields in the outliner
15:38:28 <Zakim> +RyanL
15:39:03 <sheets> (So maybe Thursday phone contact is important)
15:39:50 <RalphS> DanC: see issue 88
15:41:39 <RalphS> zakim, Lalana just arrived in mit531
15:41:39 <Zakim> +Lalana; got it
15:42:04 <RalphS> Jesus: work on hashing RDF graphs, talked with Yosi about this
15:42:22 <lkagal> lkagal (n=lkagal1@30-5-242.wireless.csail.mit.edu) has joined #dig
15:42:27 <RalphS> ... objective is to be able to quickly compare two graphs
15:42:50 <DanC> (Jesus's work is intended to contribute to performance issues in PAW, fyi, ralph. I learned this via Yosi)
15:43:14 <RalphS> Claudio: having problems fixing a bug when creating actions
15:43:43 <RalphS> zakim, Adam has left the room
15:43:43 <Zakim> sorry, RalphS, I do not recognize a party named 'Adam'
15:43:50 <RalphS> zakim, Adam has left mit531
15:43:50 <Zakim> -Adam; got it
15:44:04 <RalphS> Jim: working on UI update stuff, view area
15:44:16 <RalphS> ... finished putting in a button to expand and collapse query selection area
15:44:20 <RalphS> ... some bug squashing
15:44:26 <RalphS> ... expect to finish this today
15:44:38 <DanC> (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue21 is some part of Jim's work lately)
15:44:42 <RalphS> ... syncing Adam's sparql stuff with new changes
15:45:01 <RalphS> David: embroiled in source retrieval and how to best do this
15:45:21 <RalphS> ... moving from procedural architecture to event-driven
15:46:14 <RalphS> DanC: may be necessary to commit bits soon even if broken
15:46:37 <RalphS> Rob: trying to work postgres into dbview to export Roundup data
15:46:54 <RalphS> ... talked with Tim a bit about a dbview release soon, so working on code cleanup
15:46:55 <DanC> (dbview and postgress; I'm interested to know if that's a 10-minute-hack like one would hope)
15:47:06 <RalphS> ... will work on test cases this week, hope to borrow code from cwm
15:47:40 <RalphS> ... mysql and postgres are largely similar
15:48:07 <RalphS> ... reworking code to make it mroe modular
15:48:17 <RalphS> Harvey: working on TAMI interface for another day or two
15:48:30 <RalphS> ... then will look at Chris' scheme code and try to export it in ntriples
15:48:44 <DanC> agenda + adding scheme to the python/perl/java/prolog list consciously
15:49:32 <RalphS> Yosi: working on cwm bug interaction between canonicalization and regression testing
15:49:45 <RalphS> ... and another cwm bug that is elusive to reproduce
15:49:51 <RalphS> ... hoping to make a cwm release tarball
15:50:01 <RalphS> zakim, Joyce just arrived in mit531
15:50:01 <Zakim> +Joyce; got it
15:50:16 <RalphS> Yosi: starting to look into getting my new backward chainer integrated
15:51:49 <RalphS> Lalana: next steps for PAW not yet decided
15:52:13 <harveyj> RalphS, http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/users/harveyj/tami-demo/view.ssp?node-uri=s3:arrest-1 is a snapshot of the interface as of Friday
15:52:15 <RalphS> ... working on ISWC paper joint with Ora and Uni Bologna on context-aware and policy-aware middleware
15:52:30 <RalphS> ... hoping to finish Tabulator paper this week, due 11 Aug
15:52:31 <DanC> agenda + AAAI debrief (how did lk think the talk went? lessons learned?)
15:52:47 <RalphS> ... will send draft on 8 or 9th for comments
15:53:47 <RalphS> Joyce: working on calendar view and issue 69
15:54:04 <jambo> "calendar view of connolly's travel schedule gives lots of "No value ..." alert dialogs"
15:54:07 <RalphS> ... also working on tests and documentation
15:54:18 <DanC> (lkagal, I can't see any updates from you on the tabulator paper. I trust that's by design.)
15:54:33 <DanC> (last commit seems to be r1811 | connolly | 2006-07-31 08:11:37 -0500 )
15:54:34 <RalphS> ... am not sure what to do next on retrieving collections
15:54:37 <harveyj> and http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/cph/v2/deduce.scm has a log of a command-line interaction with the system in the comments on the bottom
15:54:48 <RalphS> ... would like help on understanding how sources retrieve collections
15:55:03 <RalphS> David: sources appear as arrays
15:55:09 <RalphS> ... collections are arrays of nodes
15:55:30 <lkagal> DanC,  I'm going to work on the tabulator paper this week. 
15:55:34 <RalphS> ... but you shouldn't need to worry about the representation in the store
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15:56:08 <RalphS> DanC: coaching tabulator work while Tim is out
15:56:57 <RalphS> ... challenging because lots of what Tim wants is "generic RDF browser" stuff
15:57:13 <RalphS> ... would like one phone call/week with each Tabulator developer
15:57:21 <RalphS> ... W3C GRDDL Working Group starting up
15:57:51 <RalphS> ... W3C GEO group starting up, poked around some French data, found lots of 404s, triggered a discussion on URI use
15:58:22 <RalphS> ... discussion thread in W3C Healthcare and Life Sciences interest group also on URI use
15:58:31 <DanC> The Research Libraray in the 21st Century event at U.T. Austin 11-12 Sep
15:58:32 <RalphS> ... getting frustrated with too many passwords
15:58:41 <RalphS> ... thinking about installing OpenID
15:59:12 <RalphS> Ryan: working on integrating openID with Longwell
15:59:25 <RalphS> ... thinking about running an openID server on simile.mit.edu
15:59:41 <RalphS> ... will be on vacation from Wed for 1.5 wks
16:00:13 <DanC> (sandro's action is done to my satisfaction, though perhaps not to sandro's)
16:01:05 <RalphS> Ralph: mostly administrative stuff but hope to talk about SwapMe plans with Ora and Deepali this week
16:02:11 <RalphS> close this agendum
16:02:20 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 2
16:02:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Followup to Fresnel discussion" taken up [from RalphS]
16:02:45 <RalphS> close agendum 1
16:02:58 <RalphS> Ryan: talked more with the IBM folk, not sure what their next steps are
16:03:17 <DanC> (which IBM folk? Elias?)O
16:03:31 <RalphS> ... Elias interested in Fresnel lenses
16:04:24 <alerer> alerer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:04:33 <RalphS> move to next agendum
16:04:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Tabulator work progress/plans" taken up [from RalphS]
16:05:00 <DanC> rel tabulator/4, timbl sent a "my understandings" msg that has a good summary
16:05:17 <DanC> From: 	Tim Berners-Lee <timbl@w3.org>
16:05:17 <DanC> To: 	tabulator@csail.mit.edu
16:05:17 <DanC> Subject: 	[Tabulator] My understandings
16:05:17 <DanC> Date: 	Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:57:02 +0800  (Mon, 23:57 CDT)
16:05:34 <RalphS> DanC: TimBL would like another Tabulator release before the term starts
16:06:28 <RalphS> Sheets: yeah, release is on my plate
16:06:33 <RalphS> move to next agendum
16:06:33 <Zakim> agendum 5. "dbview work progress/plans" taken up [from RalphS]
16:07:20 <RalphS> Rob: tabulator examination of dbview results is reasonably good
16:07:24 <RalphS> ... that's the way I test
16:07:36 <RalphS> DanC: what about a chapter describing dbview in tabulator
16:07:53 <RalphS> Rob: I'd like to run dbview on dig/issues -- i.e. Roundup data
16:08:00 <RalphS> ... this would give people two views of the same data
16:08:12 <RalphS> move to next agendum
16:08:12 <Zakim> agendum 6. "tracker work status" taken up [from RalphS]
16:08:59 <DanC> (where does the tracker work live? hmm... msg from Ralph of 6 Jul refers to http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/tracker/rif/api/rdfdump ...)
16:10:24 <DanC> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/tracker/rif/tracker.php
16:12:37 <RalphS> Claudio: I start working as an intern at IBM T.J. Watson in September
16:13:22 <DanC> hmm... SVN history of tracker.php seems to be contaminated by unix/dos line ending foo.
16:13:37 <RalphS> close this agendum
16:13:46 <RalphS> move to next agendum
16:13:46 <Zakim> agendum 7. "adding scheme to the python/perl/java/prolog list consciously" taken up [from DanC]
16:14:22 <RalphS> DanC: we've talked about integrating more programming languages
16:14:36 <RalphS> ... we're adding scheme to the mix
16:15:15 <RalphS> Harvey: the hairy scheme stuff is Chris and Jerry's code
16:15:39 <RalphS> DanC: it's best if people don't code alone
16:15:45 <RalphS> Harvey: Chris looks at my code
16:16:44 <RalphS> ... my main task for the next week or two is to get Chris and Jerry's reasoner exporting in ntriples
16:17:36 <RalphS> ... most of their code is part of their scheme distribution
16:17:49 <RalphS> move to next agendum
16:17:49 <Zakim> agendum 8. "AAAI debrief (how did lk think the talk went? lessons learned?)" taken up [from DanC]
16:18:44 <RalphS> Lalana: my talk went well, even though I planned for a 30-minute talk in 20 minutes
16:19:02 <RalphS> ... but I got no questions about why I used Semantic Web techniques
16:19:17 <RalphS> ... a company in Rhode Island expressed interest in applying our work
16:19:29 <RalphS> ... they want an access plug-in for a distributed group
16:19:43 <RalphS> ... they're visiting me tomorrow
16:20:09 <RalphS> ... I declined to sign a non-disclosure but they're coming anyway
16:20:34 <RalphS> DanC: I particularly liked your slide style
16:20:52 <RalphS> Lalana: I had a detailed example of representing policies in several ways but had to skip over it
16:21:12 <RalphS> Dan: I ran into Ben Kypers again
16:21:25 <RalphS> ... he didn't get to ask Tim his question
16:21:31 <DanC> Kuipers
16:21:37 <RalphS> s/Kypers/Kuipers/
16:21:56 <RalphS> ... Kuipers' algernon work lets you reason over data without having all of it available
16:22:19 <DanC> -> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/qr/algernon.html  Algernon and Access-Limited Logic
16:22:23 <RalphS> ... algernon work not currently active but Kuipers noodling on possibility of reactivating
16:24:09 <RalphS> ... Larry Lessig said good things about Semantic Web at Wikimania
16:24:17 <ryanlee> Denny V.?
16:25:39 <DanC> ooh... looking for the wikimania blog entry I saw, I see tabulator screenshots from somebody in http://www.wshoy.sidar.org/index.php?2006/08/05/36-tabulator-un-navegador-para-la-web-semantica-parte-ii
16:25:45 <RalphS> next meeting: 21 August
16:26:35 <RalphS> DanC: DIG f2f?
16:26:52 <RalphS> Ralph: I have 31 August in my calendar
16:27:24 <DanC> I'm holding 28 Aug; I'm supposed to make flight arrangements 3 weeks in advance, which is today.
16:28:43 <Zakim> -DanC
16:28:48 <Zakim> -RyanL
16:28:52 <Zakim> -MIT531
16:28:53 <Zakim> DIG_weekly()11:30AM has ended
16:28:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Yosi, Ralph, Harvey, Rob, Sheets, Jim, Claudio, Jesus, Adam, DanC, RyanL, Lalana, Joyce
16:29:41 <DanC> ah... here's the Wikimania item that made me so jealous; and it's from the very same Denny V http://semantic.nodix.net/2006/08/maybe-hottest-conference-ever.html
16:30:48 <DanC> is Jesus on IRC? "Si para muestra hace falta un bot?n, aqu? el esperado ejemplo de uso de Tabulator.". that uses either vocabulary or verb conjugations that I can't work out
16:31:09 <DanC> muestra is something like "teach" or "show"
16:31:20 <DanC> "falta" is something like "lack"
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16:31:42 <DanC> "Si" is either "yes" or "if".
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16:32:07 <DanC> "If to show I lack a button..." perhaps? hmm.
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16:32:59 <DanC> hmm... "Si para muestra hace falta un bot?n, aqu? el esperado ejemplo de uso de Tabulator."
16:33:08 <DanC> ah... accents were getting mangled.
16:33:55 <DanC> I think "probablemente el ejemplo que m?s me ha gustado de momento" means "probably my favorite example"
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17:02:13 <RalphS> Regrets: Danny, TimBL
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17:37:32 <jambo> DanC, muestra hace falta un boton is really just kind of "to show a necessary example", i think, but I havent spoken spanish in about 3 years now :(
17:39:39 <DanC> hmm
17:40:45 <jambo> or rather, an unseen example
17:43:34 <jambo> But yeah, that says "probably my favorite example thus far"
17:50:43 <jambo> hrmm, with that example, the map zooms in further than google maps has data for... that is sort of aggravating, seeing as I make a call to their own function to see how far I can zoom in
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18:12:51 <sheets> Re: content negotiation, 'q' seems to mean both quality of content and preference in negotiation -- which is correct?
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18:52:20 <DanC> both, I think
18:52:58 <DanC> i.e. when the client sends, it's expressing a preference; when the server responds, it's expressing quality
18:53:58 <sheets> I am still interested
18:54:43 <sheets> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html
18:54:59 <sheets> in 14.1 it states " The example
18:54:59 <sheets>        Accept: audio/*; q=0.2, audio/basic
18:54:59 <sheets> SHOULD be interpreted as "I prefer audio/basic, but send me any audio type if it is the best available after an 80% mark-down in quality." "
18:55:25 <sheets> But this is at odds with what I've read elsewhere about q= being used for client preferences
18:56:21 <DanC> how is it at odds? it seems consistent, to me
18:57:34 <sheets> q= can't mean both "Send me content with a quality markdown" and "Send me this content after this other content"
18:57:58 <sheets> What if I prefer low quality audio over high quality audio?
18:58:19 <DanC> that's considered irrational
18:58:32 <DanC> i.e. the protocol can't express it
18:58:41 <sheets> Why?! If I am on a slow connection then it's totally rational...
18:58:47 <sheets> hmm
18:59:08 <sheets> It seems the protocol can express it if more than one attribute were used instead of just 'q'
18:59:15 <DanC> there was discussion of ways to express bandwidth limitations, but I think they didn't get standardized
18:59:23 <sheets> ok
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18:59:46 <sheets> It still seems wrong that 'q' has two different meanings
18:59:54 <DanC> I think the discussion is in the www-talk archives from '92 or '93 if you really want to see all the gory details. (or maybe in an http-wg archive)
19:00:28 <sheets> If I prefer one type of audio over another but I still want them at high quality "audio/foo; q=1.0, audio/bar; q=0.1" may not do what I expect
19:00:50 <DanC> er... audio quality is not what the protocol expresses..
19:01:08 <DanC> "quality" in the http spec refers to loss of integrity due to conversion from one MIME type to another.
19:01:51 <sheets> fine, but apparently it is also used for content-type preference ordering
19:02:05 <DanC> also? it's *only* used for preference ordering.
19:02:32 <sheets> "SHOULD be interpreted as "I prefer audio/basic, but send me any audio type if it is the best available after an 80% mark-down in quality.""
19:02:51 <sheets> Doesn't that mean that '0.8' is used for quality information too?
19:02:54 <DanC> that's not saying "after adding noise to the audio signal"
19:04:06 <DanC> that's saying "if you have audio/mp3 at q=1 and audio/basic at q=0.5 , send me the audio/basic, but if the audio/basic has q=0.1, then send me the mp3"
19:04:54 <DanC> the 0.5 vs 0.1 is at the discretion of the server/publisher. it's not a measurable thing.
19:05:21 <sheets> But the client is just using arbitrary 'q' values to rank their preferred content-types
19:05:38 <DanC> yes, and the server is using arbitrary 'q' values to rank their preferred content types.
19:05:56 <sheets> but these are not the same set of arbitrary values
19:06:03 <DanC> no?
19:06:24 <DanC> by virtue of the fact that both parties agree to the HTTP spec, they are.
19:06:53 <sheets> if the server says "audio/mp3 is 0.8 and audio.basic is 0.1"
19:06:58 <sheets> but the client doesn't know this
19:07:07 <sheets> and just uses arbitrary values for ranking purposes only
19:07:19 <sheets> then whatever semantics the server has assigned will be unknown to the client
19:07:25 <DanC> yup.
19:07:32 <sheets> and will be invoked with possibly incorrect results
19:07:47 <sheets> because 'q' expresses both ranking and quality
19:07:55 <DanC> well, results that are sub-optimal by some other measure, but they'll be correct per http
19:08:12 <sheets> so then it seems like the spec is brain-damaged here
19:08:35 <sheets> unless there is some way to untangle quality and ranking that I don't know about
19:08:35 <DanC> well, it has limitations. but you don't see that it works for most cases?
19:09:02 <sheets> It seems like the quality aspect of 'q' can and should be handled by other content-type attributes
19:09:05 <DanC> the spec treats preference and quality as the same thing. it's a simplifying assumption that works in most cases, no?
19:09:10 <sheets> and that most people just use it for ranking
19:09:21 <DanC> most people never use this part of HTTP at all.
19:09:36 <sheets> Sure... that doesn't really excuse it, though
19:10:12 <DanC> well, yes, it does: why should the spec be even _more_ complicated when, to first (or 2nd or 3rd..) order, noone will use the extra complexity
19:10:13 <DanC> ?
19:10:51 <DanC> it's always possible for to use more round-trips; the server can always respond with 406 "well, here's what I've got; you decide".
19:10:59 <sheets> I would argue it would actually be simpler: 'q' would mean one thing and one thing only
19:11:38 <DanC> it does mean one thing and one thing only: it tells you which variant to pick.
19:11:48 <DanC> you just don't like what it means. ;-)
19:12:17 <sheets> You're right, I don't
19:12:20 <sheets> because it's wrong
19:12:21 <sheets> ;-)
19:12:51 <DanC> well, hop back in your time machine and get involved in the design discussion. ;-) or change a billion web server installations ;-)
19:13:29 <DanC> don't hold your breath ;-)
19:13:49 <DanC> actually, there is some TCN/transparent-content-negotiation thing out there...
19:14:01 <DanC> ... it's complicated that I never looked at it closely. But maybe it appeals to you.
19:14:30 <DanC> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2295.txt
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22:14:14 <timbl> sourcefetch iasynchronicity makes it trickeir to debug than moset?
22:14:18 <timbl> ,ost?
22:18:06 <timbl> We have Leef as a user of the library ... cool.
22:25:44 <sheets> No, firefox crashes with a segfault. And yeah, LeeF seems to be a user. :-)
22:27:33 <timbl> segfault -- ouch ... where to they hang out on IRC, I wonder
22:28:30 <timbl> A segfaul should get you some moral support if not actual help and fixes!
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22:44:02 <timbl> Hi Lalana.
22:44:12 <timbl> remind me when the paper dedline is?
22:44:19 <timbl> kkaga
22:44:23 <timbl> lkagal
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22:47:22 <sheets> timbl, apparently not irc.mozilla.org#firefox -- I got absolutely no response
23:02:50 <lkagal> timbl, the tabulator paper is due Friday, Aug 11th. 
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