IRC log of dig on 2006-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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17:51:33 [sheets]
timbl or DanC, opinion or fact on the difference between scheme://host/path# and scheme://host/path ?
17:57:30 [sandro_]
what is that URL naming?
17:59:06 [DanC]
they differ by one character; what is there to have an opinion about?
17:59:35 [sandro_]
*snort*
18:00:41 [sheets]
DanC, so they are different URLs or do missing fragments mean no fragment?
18:01:32 [DanC]
in some cases the # makes a difference, in some cases it doesn't. But the fact that there are some cases where it does make a difference makes it clear that they're different URIs
18:01:56 [sheets]
DanC, so is the Tabulator a case where it makes a difference?
18:02:12 [DanC]
which part of the tabulator?
18:02:17 [sheets]
DanC, display
18:02:35 [sheets]
Do the two URIs refer to two different terms?
18:02:43 [DanC]
display of what, the URI? yes, I would expect scheme://host/path# to look different from scheme://host/path
18:03:21 [sheets]
Of course, are they different terms, though?
18:03:50 [sheets]
without the fragment, I have been told is always a document if it was received with an HTTP 200
18:03:56 [DanC]
I don't understand your question, I don't think. It seems trivially obvious that they're different terms.
18:04:25 [sandro_]
The terms "term" and "URI" and "string" are synonyms in this context.
18:05:05 [sheets]
<Person rdf:about="#"/> differs from <Person rdf:about=""/> then?
18:05:12 [sandro_]
I see sheets to be asking "Does http:://foo# identify the same resource as http:://foo"
18:05:13 [sheets]
I just want to be very clear on this
18:05:31 [sandro_]
(sorry for the double colons)
18:06:10 [DanC]
same resource: sometimes. But since sometimes not, they're different terms.
18:06:46 [sheets]
Then <Person rdf:about="#"/> differs from <Person rdf:about=""/>
18:07:14 [sandro_]
How can you tell, DanC? If it's HTTP does it depend on the Content-Type? With text/html are they the same?
18:30:43 [DanC]
in general, the question of whether two URIs denote the same thing is arbitrarliy difficulat to determine. http:://foo# and http:://foo are two URIs.
18:31:31 [DanC]
if some source you trust says, for example, { <http:://foo#> owl:sameAs <http:://foo> } , then you'll conclude they denote the same thing.
18:45:57 [timbl]
Sheets, often http://foo/bar#">http://foo/bar# is used as a namespace, in other words as the start of a bunch of URIs, but not used itself to refer to anything. If it was, then the way to procxess it would be to look up http://foo/bar and find something named wit the empty string as its local name. Since neither RDF/XML nor N3 allow an empty string as a local name, that isn't going to happen in practice.
18:46:41 [timbl]
There was a statement historically that an empty and missing fragid were equivalent but it was dropped.
18:47:57 [timbl]
<Person rdf:about=""/> is in my opinion a false statement, as the empty URI always refs to the current *document* and documents are not people. But that is a different issue.
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21:02:52 [sheets]
scheme://www.w3.org and scheme://www.w3.org/ are different (one specifies a path, one does not) and yet they point to the same document and the one without a path does not redirect
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21:13:32 [DanC]
do you mean http:://www.w3.org and http://www.w3.org/ ? Yes, those behave the same way via the HTTP protocol. They're still different URIs.
21:13:37 [DanC]
I wonder what you're trying tod o.
21:17:28 [sheets]
DanC, I'm tabulating those
21:17:41 [sheets]
DanC, I find that they both return the same information
21:17:56 [sheets]
but the metadata they return explicitly refers to the URI with a slash
21:19:43 [sheets]
DanC, that is correct
21:20:15 [sheets]
further confusing things is HTTP Content-Location
21:20:40 [sheets]
I keep track of the content-location headers but do not smush them
21:21:15 [DanC]
pronoun overload... them=? how do you smush headers? I feel like we're starting in the middle again.
21:23:13 [DanC]
I don't see one.
21:23:29 [sheets]
DanC, content-location is another issue that causes issues
21:23:39 [sheets]
sorry for the confusion
21:24:06 [sheets]
www.w3.org and www.w3.org/ have a fairly straightforward problem
21:24:16 [DanC]
do tell
21:24:56 [sheets]
it seems that www.w3.org should be canonicalized to www.w3.org/ as the lack of a path implies an empty path as far as HTTP is concerned (although, the URI spec seems to have changed on this)
21:25:26 [sheets]
We, however, do not canonicalize URIs and so we have two URIs with effectively the same meaning that do not get smushed
21:25:54 [DanC]
please, please, please, start at the beginning. I have the developer version of the tabulator on screen. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab.html . which URI do I start with in order to exhibit the issue?
21:26:19 [sheets]
Ok
21:26:27 [sheets]
start with http://www.w3.org
21:26:34 [sheets]
tabulate that
21:26:37 [sheets]
great
21:26:50 [sheets]
now wait a little bit until the number in the upper right goes to 0
21:26:54 [DanC]
roger; I see "World Wide..."
21:27:02 [DanC]
0. check.
21:27:15 [sheets]
once that's done, open and close the node as the async stuff isn't working yet
21:27:19 [sheets]
this refreshes it
21:27:37 [DanC]
it's already open; you mean close and open?
21:27:43 [sheets]
yes, sorry
21:27:46 [sheets]
close and open
21:27:56 [DanC]
ok, done; some yellow stuff turned green.
21:27:58 [sheets]
you should see that the seeAlso links have been loaded
21:28:00 [sheets]
great
21:28:12 [sheets]
do you see a description of the w3c?
21:28:16 [DanC]
I see an extra slash in //Overview-about
21:28:37 [DanC]
no, I don't see a description.
21:28:40 [sheets]
strange... you loaded the URI without a slash
21:28:44 [sheets]
ok... that's the problem
21:28:52 [DanC]
yes, started with http://www.w3.org
21:28:56 [sheets]
there should be a description as the seeAlsos point to metadata with a description
21:29:05 [sheets]
now tabulate http://www.w3.org/
21:29:12 [sheets]
and you should see much of the same information
21:29:18 [DanC]
do I add it to the existing state, or reload to start over?
21:29:21 [sheets]
but with extra statements
21:29:29 [sheets]
add it to existing state
21:29:42 [sheets]
these extra statements are things like description and subject
21:29:50 [sheets]
they only apply to the version with a slash
21:29:54 [DanC]
yes, I see Description etc.
21:30:05 [sheets]
This seems like a problem, no?
21:30:19 [DanC]
no
21:30:25 [DanC]
we could decide it's a problem.
21:30:25 [sheets]
why not?
21:31:43 [DanC]
what's your favorite flavor of ice cream?
21:32:05 [sheets]
i don't like ice cream
21:32:08 [DanC]
why not?
21:32:12 [sheets]
too sweet
21:32:39 [DanC]
ok, well, the tabulator doesn't seem like a problem cuz it's doing what I expected.
21:32:41 [sheets]
ok, so why don't we decide it's a problem?
21:32:54 [DanC]
I don't have strong feelings one way or another.
21:33:08 [DanC]
As I have said to timbl, the whole idea of a generic RDF browser doesn't float my boat.
21:33:09 [sheets]
But will most people expect www.w3.org and www.w3.org/ to mean different things?
21:34:16 [DanC]
er... well, yes, based on their experience... but the semantic web deals mostly with formal systems, which often don't agree with what most people would expect.
21:34:26 [sheets]
hmm... ok
21:34:33 [DanC]
sorry... no, not different.
21:34:41 [sheets]
even though the web server returns the same document?
21:36:07 [DanC]
if you're going to try to canonicalize based on whether the server will return the same document, you'll have to look into the server's .htaccess file and such. I don't recommend that.
21:36:52 [DanC]
if you want to canonicalize http://www.w3.org to http://www.w3.org/ , as a policy/design choice, that seems fairly reasonable.
21:37:04 [sheets]
hrm...
21:37:22 [sheets]
the next question becomes: what about http://www.w3.org/Talks and http://www.w3.org/Talks/
21:37:44 [sheets]
or maybe only for hosts lacking paths at all
21:38:03 [DanC]
right; hosts lacking paths is something you can reason about without going over the wire.
21:38:16 [sheets]
ok
21:39:24 [DanC]
in the case of /Talks vs /Talks/ , I wouldn't canonicalize them at all. They're just 2 URIs... until you go over the wire, when you'll learn they'r related. You could record that relationship as a triple.
21:40:26 [DanC]
re "only for hosts lacking paths"... make that: only for http and ftp hosts lacking paths. Don't do it for arbitrary schemes. In some schemes, the difference may matter.
21:40:28 [evoli]
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21:40:35 [sheets]
yes
21:40:37 [DanC]
or maybe not... we should check the generic syntax spec.
21:40:52 [sheets]
it's only for some schemes
21:40:56 [DanC]
ok
21:41:00 [sheets]
oh, i need to add https support, too
21:41:02 [sheets]
bah
21:41:42 [DanC]
by the way, you do realize that we're making this design up, right? there's no Right Answer to find.
21:42:22 [sheets]
which design?
21:43:19 [DanC]
the design for how tabulator does URI canonicalization, and how it deals with redirects
21:44:16 [sheets]
ah, yes... I'd like to respect what little of the RDF, HTTP, URI, and XML specs deal with this, though
21:44:27 [sheets]
it seems to sort of be at the border of all of them
21:44:42 [sheets]
and there are a lot of de facto solutions out there
21:45:15 [DanC]
there's nothing in those specs that says the current tabulator behaviour is wrong, is what I'm saying.
21:46:05 [sheets]
right... that's what I'm finding
21:46:05 [DanC]
URIEquivalence-15: When are two URI variants considered equivalent? http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#URIEquivalence-15
21:46:17 [sheets]
!
21:49:05 [sheets]
ack
21:49:21 [sheets]
timbl says "no definitive URI canonicalization algorithm"
22:37:52 [DanC]
hmm... "I need to get in touch with alerer" says jambo re issue102. So that puts jambo back in the critical path for release. an evoli seems to be out. sheets, if you reach a stopping point, I'd like to chat for a minute about the release
22:38:06 [DanC]
s/jambo back/alerer back/
22:38:07 [sheets]
DanC, yes?
22:39:03 [DanC]
just want to check that you're aware of these bits of news relevant to the release plan
22:40:18 [sheets]
yes
22:40:29 [sheets]
Not a whole lot I can do
22:40:47 [sheets]
other than hound them, fix stuff myself, or remove stuff
22:41:25 [DanC]
it'll be up to you to decide whether we release on Friday.
22:41:36 [sheets]
ok
22:41:43 [sheets]
I think it may still be possible
22:41:56 [sheets]
but it may bleed for a day or two
22:42:09 [sheets]
what should I do if I hit 40 hours this week?
22:42:09 [DanC]
bleed... you mean slip?
22:42:15 [sheets]
sure, slip
22:42:20 [sheets]
but more painful :-P
22:43:04 [DanC]
I suppose it can slip to the following week..
22:43:22 [DanC]
anyway... just try to make changes in plans consciously.
22:43:45 [DanC]
and, for example, if you decide to defer something, pls tell roundup
22:44:49 [DanC]
if we slip to the next week, timbl will likely get back in the loop. That could be a feature or a bug; he might insist on getting more stuff fixed before release.
22:45:23 [sheets]
roger
22:48:51 [DanC]
family time in 12 minutes, FYI.
22:49:23 [sheets]
no problem
22:49:30 [sheets]
I'll keep chugging
23:52:10 [timbl]
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