IRC log of dig on 2007-06-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

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11:35:50 [kubrick.freenode.net]: topic is: DIG (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ ) meets Mondays at 2:30pm (except 28 May, memorial day)
11:35:50 [kubrick.freenode.net]: Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS sandro jambo das05r eikeon
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14:22:07 [DanC]: todo + report problem with simile openid firefox extension
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15:29:49 [presbrey]: (11:10:14 AM) presbrey: the SPARQL working draft doesn't seem to define insert, update, etc.
15:29:50 [presbrey]: (11:14:47 AM) timbl: No ... we would have to add them :)
15:29:50 [presbrey]: (11:15:01 AM) timbl: This would be good feedback to the worjking grup for new versions if they make them.
15:29:50 [presbrey]: (11:15:22 AM) timbl: Various other prople (Andy Seeabourne/HP?) have done extensions of SPARQL for update.
15:29:50 [presbrey]: (11:16:21 AM) presbrey: When we were talking earlier, you seemed to be implying that receiving SPARQL update queries necessitated having a SPARQL endpoint on the server hosting the RDF?
15:29:51 [presbrey]: (11:16:51 AM) timbl: Yes. It woud mean anyone hosting editable RDF would have to have secial server smarts.
15:29:53 [presbrey]: (11:17:14 AM) timbl: But it would capture every change instant;y, with no fear of the browser crashing with the edits.
15:29:56 [presbrey]: (11:17:25 AM) timbl: and it could distribute the changes to other browsers
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15:30:06 [presbrey]: (11:18:49 AM) presbrey: So on such a server, it would be a good idea to store the RDF trees in a live database
15:30:06 [presbrey]: (11:19:11 AM) presbrey: rather than the current scenario where RDF is mostly files scattered on disk
15:30:06 [presbrey]: (11:19:12 AM) timbl: Or to rewrite a file.
15:30:06 [presbrey]: (11:19:26 AM) timbl: Scattered files has a lot of advantages.
15:30:06 [presbrey]: (11:19:32 AM) timbl: Distributed.
15:30:08 [presbrey]: (11:19:54 AM) timbl: Another option would be for the client to regenerate the whole file and send it back by WebDav or HTTP put.
15:30:11 [presbrey]: (11:20:02 AM) timbl: but that is more clumsy.
15:30:13 [presbrey]: (11:20:10 AM) presbrey: certainly the files would remain
15:30:15 [presbrey]: (11:20:17 AM) timbl: SpARQL update would be more cool just now I think.
15:30:17 [presbrey]: (11:20:49 AM) presbrey: flush them to disk when an update occurs in database
15:30:19 [presbrey]: (11:21:23 AM) presbrey: so browsing the network can still occur quickly without querying databases every time
15:30:21 [presbrey]: (11:22:49 AM) presbrey: letting the live database handle modification queries would allow concurrent editing
15:30:23 [presbrey]: (11:23:07 AM) presbrey: which would be far from clumsy ;-P
15:30:25 [presbrey]: (11:23:21 AM) timbl: yes.
15:30:27 [presbrey]: (11:23:58 AM) timbl: A database-backed system or a triplestore-backed system would be the most agile. But we also an things which any person can install easiliy.
15:30:30 [presbrey]: (11:24:48 AM) presbrey: should I look through these... <http://esw.w3.org/topic/SemanticWebTools#head-805c63479c854babe4657d5184de605910f6d3e2> ?
15:30:33 [presbrey]: (11:25:06 AM) timbl: A really importantthing, anyway, is to have a shared common interface on the network, that lots of clients and lots of servers can later use
15:30:36 [presbrey]: (11:25:28 AM) timbl: Do loo at Boca .. it is cool
15:30:38 [presbrey]: (11:25:45 AM) timbl: And Jena's Joseki
15:30:40 [presbrey]: (11:26:03 AM) timbl: Boca is distributed. Made by IBM folkd over the road
15:30:42 [presbrey]: (11:26:21 AM) presbrey: cool. can I install these to play with somewhere?
15:30:44 [presbrey]: (11:27:34 AM) timbl: http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update.html
15:30:46 [presbrey]: EOF.
15:31:26 [timbl]: Thanks!
15:32:09 [timbl]: So the SPARQL update spec is certainly a good place tostart. I would use that in fact.
15:32:15 [timbl]: Feed back changes.
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15:32:29 [timbl]: So in fact we could run thetabulator against a Joseki store in the first instance.
15:33:41 [presbrey]: Jena implements SPARQL update spec by HP?
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15:34:15 [timbl]: Well, the same people wrote both, I expect they documented what they implemented.
15:35:34 [presbrey]: is there an available development server I can play with this stuff on?
15:36:29 [lkagal]: Danny ?
15:37:50 [DanC]: presbrey, on SPARQL update/insert, as tim says, Andy Seaborne and company have done some work in the area. it should be linked from http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlUpdateLanguage
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15:40:38 [presbrey]: thanks DanC, any resolutions on "big missing pieces"?
15:42:27 [DanC]: hmm... I'm not very familiar with that strawman proposal. The diff/delta work that timbl and I did handles blank nodes when removing triples, to some extent.
16:01:34 [DanC]: there, presbrey ... http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlUpdateLanguage I updated it to give Andy S.'s newer work more emphasis, but also to link to the diff/patch work by TimBL and me, and to link to some nearby wiki topics that sandro used to noodle on.
16:14:45 [presbrey]: thanks, any suggestions on direction to get started?
16:16:02 [DanC]: have you figured out a story/use-case?
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16:18:15 [DanC]: presbrey?
16:24:02 [presbrey]: adding a friend to my foaf file seems reasonable
16:24:29 [DanC]: ok, yes, that's a good use case
16:25:03 [DanC]: in this use case, is there a SPARQL+update server for your foaf file?
16:27:56 [presbrey]: no, I've saved it in my mit webspace
16:30:47 [DanC]: can we pretend/expect/plan for a SPARQL+update server for your foaf file? perhaps an intermediate server that has write access to (part of) your MIT web space?
16:32:06 [presbrey]: sure, hence asking for test server
16:33:28 [DanC]: I think Andy S's work includes code you can play with. you might try that.
16:33:42 [DanC]: but I expect his server wants to host the data.
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18:10:53 [yosi_lap]: eikeon, are you there?
18:11:38 [eikeon]: yep, What's up?
18:13:51 [yosi_lap]: I'm trying to follow the instructions to test the PAW engine
18:14:09 [yosi_lap]: and I'm getting a 404 somewhere from the redfoot svn
18:14:21 [yosi_lap]: https://svn.redfoot.net/trunk/hypercode/kernel
18:16:24 [eikeon]: yoshi, it should work if you replace trunk with http://svn.redfoot.net/tags/2.1.2/
18:17:28 [presbrey]: /who #redfoot
18:17:33 [presbrey]: what is redfoot?
18:18:43 [presbrey]: ooh, nevermind
18:27:40 [yosi_lap]: eikeon, I'm getting failures on run_tests.py
18:27:58 [yosi_lap]: as far as I can tell, it is not my fault
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18:30:00 [RalphS]: zakim, this is dig
18:30:00 [Zakim]: RalphS, I see DIG_weekly()2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dig".
18:30:14 [RalphS]: zakim, this is dig
18:30:14 [Zakim]: ok, RalphS; that matches DIG_weekly()2:30PM
18:30:20 [Zakim]: +MIT531
18:30:34 [RalphS]: zakim, mit531 has Lalana, Yosi, Ralph
18:30:34 [Zakim]: +Lalana, Yosi, Ralph; got it
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18:31:18 [RalphS]: zakim, Robert has just arrived in mit531
18:31:18 [Zakim]: +Robert; got it
18:31:49 [Zakim]: +Danny
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18:32:55 [RalphS]: Meeting: DIG Weekly
18:33:01 [RalphS]: Agenda: https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2007-June/001225.html
18:33:35 [Zakim]: +DanC
18:34:21 [RalphS]: previous meeting was 21 May
18:34:35 [DanC]: agenda + Plans for UROPs
18:34:41 [DanC]: agenda + A wiki for DIG
18:34:42 [eikeon]: yosi_lap: umm... /me just remembers that Jim and I changed the use cases right before the final demo... and run_tests.py never got changed to reflect the new and improved use cases.
18:35:12 [DanC]: agenda + OWL v.next and rules
18:35:19 [DanC]: agenda + Next meeting: suggest 11 June 2007 (regrets from Danny) [djw]
18:36:11 [RalphS]: -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2007-05-21#T17-40-38 previous 2007-05-21
18:37:19 [RalphS]: zakim, TimBL has arrived in mit531
18:37:20 [Zakim]: +TimBL; got it
18:37:40 [RalphS]: Chair: Danny
18:37:44 [DanC]: regrets: Sandro (ESWC-related stuff or something)
18:39:04 [DanC]: ah yes, hi Robert. We've met.
18:39:08 [RalphS]: Topic: WikiGenes [Robert Hoffman]
18:39:59 [timbl]: http://ccbio.mskcc.org/_hoffmann/tmp/rm/
18:40:24 [RalphS]: zakim, mit531 also has Joe_Presbrey
18:40:24 [Zakim]: +Joe_Presbrey; got it
18:40:33 [DanC]: Host ccbio.mskcc.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)
18:40:47 [timbl]: http://cbio.mskcc.org/~hoffmann/tmp/dm/index.html
18:40:52 [DanC]: http://ccbio.mskc.org/_hoffmann/tmp/rm/
18:41:11 [DanC]: oops... "Mskc.org is your gateway to the best sites on the Internet for Karate! "
18:42:14 [djweitzner]: http://cbio.mskcc.org/~hoffmann/tmp/dm/index.html
18:43:34 [DanC]: which editor did you start with? (I wonder if it's already known to http://esw.w3.org/topic/ImmersiveHypertextEditing )
18:51:31 [presbrey]: DanC, screen 7
18:51:41 [DanC]: right; got it now
19:05:00 [djweitzner]: q?
19:08:55 [DanC]: has anybody else tried running WikiGenes? is the code available? in SVN?
19:11:42 [DanC]: is the WikiGenes data available as RDF? or as plain HTML?
19:13:10 [RalphS]: -> http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/ TinyMCE
19:13:22 [RalphS]: ... is what Robert built his code on
19:13:59 [RalphS]: err, maybe
19:14:06 [RalphS]: -> http://drupal.org/project/tinymce TinyMCE
19:20:37 [timbl]: q?
19:20:48 [djweitzner]: q+ to ask what's next
19:22:48 [DanC]: (I suggest that the enjoyment factor has more to do with the fact that the java code only runs in one place, but the javascript code runs on lots of different machines. plus the javascript has visible aspect to it.)
19:24:54 [RalphS]: Robert: iHOP covers 40,000 genes
19:25:49 [RalphS]: ... maybe 5% of (known) genes
19:26:38 [djweitzner]: agenda
19:26:42 [djweitzner]: agenda?
19:26:51 [RalphS]: TimBL: would be nice to record the provenance
19:27:21 [RalphS]: ... let user indicate source of additions, confidence
19:27:27 [timbl]: and metadata bout the provenence .. creative commons, who write it etc
19:29:42 [RalphS]: move to next agendum
19:29:42 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Plans for UROPs" taken up [from DanC]
19:30:11 [RalphS]: [Tim goes to see who's in the area]
19:30:55 [RalphS]: zakim, Robert has left mit531
19:30:55 [Zakim]: -Robert; got it
19:30:57 [DanC]: (my IRC client says presbrey is away. odd.)
19:31:51 [RalphS]: zakim, Kenny_Lu and David_Li have arrived in mit531
19:31:52 [Zakim]: I don't understand you, RalphS
19:32:04 [RalphS]: zakim, mit531 also has Kenny_Lu and David_Li
19:32:04 [Zakim]: +Kenny_Lu, David_Li; got it
19:32:28 [DanC]: (editing... is undo in the 1st version or for later?)
19:34:27 [DanC]: TimBL: we're working on editing. there's undo, and 2-way communication with the server, and TAM-style provenance...
19:34:36 [DanC]: [sounds like most of computer science.]
19:35:31 [DanC]: ?: I'm going down the todo list...
19:35:43 [RalphS]: s/?/David/
19:35:45 [DanC]: [which TODO list? is that somewhere in the tabulator issues list?]
19:35:53 [yosi_lap]: anything which assumes we have already solved the graph-subgraph isomorphism part to be able to tell the server what is being removed sounds like a good problem to me
19:36:40 [RalphS]: move to next agendum
19:36:40 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, RalphS
19:36:53 [RalphS]: Topic: A wiki for DIG
19:37:26 [DanC]: +1 mediawiki with openid and semantic mediawiki
19:37:45 [djweitzner]: The SIMILE group uses two separate instances of MediaWiki to power separate private and a public facing wikis. We have an OpenID login module and a Semantic MediaWiki module installed.
19:37:45 [djweitzner]: If we manage our own, we could get a TiG MySQL database. The thing that's keeping our swada-based Drupal install from moving completely to TiG servers would also be an obstacle for a wiki: since we run our actual site on a read-only working copy out of Subversion, both Drupal and MediaWiki would require account and password info to be embedded in Subversion-managed files, something I don't feel that comfortable with. I'm still
19:37:53 [RalphS]: -> https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2007-May/001221.html easiest path to a DIG wiki?
19:38:00 [yosi_lap]: Zakim, who is on the queue?
19:38:00 [Zakim]: I see djweitzner on the speaker queue
19:38:09 [djweitzner]: q-
19:38:17 [DanC]: http://simile.mit.edu/wiki/Team_Members
19:38:25 [RalphS]: -> https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2007-June/001224.html Ryan on easiest path to a DIG wiki?
19:38:44 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "A wiki for DIG" taken up [from DanC]
19:39:25 [RalphS]: DanC: I like the MediaWiki approach but it's not the shortest-path
19:39:36 [RalphS]: ... I believe T!G will create a Wiki on request
19:40:40 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "OWL v.next and rules" taken up [from DanC]
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19:41:21 [DanC]: yosi_lap, can I have a look at the MENG thesis proposal?
19:41:29 [RalphS]: zakim, mit531 no longer has David_Li, Kenny_Lu, Joe_Presbrey
19:41:29 [Zakim]: -David_Li, Kenny_Lu, Joe_Presbrey; got it
19:41:59 [amy]: things do get stolen in the building. I would not recommend that people leave anything valuable out
19:42:24 [amy]: I saw 0 people, I didn't count laptops :)
19:42:38 [amy]: now I see 3 people
19:42:42 [timbl]: Thanks. They came to the DIG meeting w/o laptops.
19:42:50 [timbl]: they will learn ;-)
19:43:16 [amy]: aha :)
19:43:49 [RalphS]: but TimBL dragged them into the meeting room
19:44:25 [RalphS]: DanC: OWL 1.1 only proposed to add chaining for OWL-DL
19:44:38 [RalphS]: ... that is, it's only going to be explained within -DL
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19:51:00 [RalphS]: move to next agendum
19:51:01 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Next meeting: suggest 11 June 2007 (regrets from Danny)" taken up [from djw]
19:51:10 [RalphS]: Danny: regrets for 11 June
19:51:36 [RalphS]: TimBL: I'll chair
19:51:39 [Zakim]: -Danny
19:51:40 [RalphS]: [adjourned]
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19:51:48 [DanC]: (my own OWL/rules stuff... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/Papers/owl-acl2/doc20 Using ACL2 with Semantic Web Data )
19:51:51 [Zakim]: -MIT531
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19:52:07 [Zakim]: -DanC
19:52:08 [Zakim]: DIG_weekly()2:30PM has ended
19:52:09 [Zakim]: Attendees were Lalana, Yosi, Ralph, Robert, Danny, DanC, TimBL, Joe_Presbrey, Kenny_Lu, David_Li
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19:53:08 [DanC]: (and sandro did surnia )
19:57:23 [yosi_lap]: eikeon, redfoot now tries to download http://redfoot.net/hypercode/programs/command_runner# and dies
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