IRC log of dig on 2007-07-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- topic is: DIG (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/ ) meets Mondays at 2:30pm
- 11:39:13 [kubrick.freenode.net]
- Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS timbl sandro eikeon das05r sbp DanC
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- 15:45:21 [yosi_s]
- timbl, cwm was only sending out an accept header for rdf/xml
- 15:45:28 [yosi_s]
- the reason being a change by you
- 15:45:51 [yosi_s]
- from Jan 29, 2007
- 15:46:01 [yosi_s]
- labeled `Separate Accept: headers for buggy servers'
- 15:46:35 [yosi_s]
- this fixed nothing
- 15:46:44 [yosi_s]
- it simply stopped cwm from asking for n3
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- 16:33:48 [sandro]
- Do we have an agenda today?
- 16:46:14 [sandro]
- DanC, are you going to DIG today? (and if so, I'm curious why. I'm trying to figure out if there's any reason to go.)
- 17:03:59 [DanC]
- the time is reserved in my calendar; I don't like endorsing meetings without prepared agendas, but...
- 17:05:38 [DanC]
- I guess I'm likely to attend in support of UROP supervision
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- 17:54:11 [sandro]
- I did now. Yeah, UROP supervision is nice, but not worth my time right now. Something about Semantic Web Architecture would be, though. Maybe not today, anyway.
- 17:56:16 [yosi_s]
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- 18:07:44 [DanC]
- hmm... getting the GRDDL PR out might preempt my attendance
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- 18:20:20 [sandro]
- I wonder if there are a couple really *good* examples of simple N3 rules which I can use for RIF. I'm pretty tired of rules like in the current RIF draft, part of which reads: And ( Exists ?Buyer (purchase(?Buyer ?Seller book(?Author LeRif) $49)) ?Seller=?Author )
- 18:21:05 [sandro]
- (note the book title and the dollar amount are these weird constant things -- I have no idea what they are.)
- 18:27:46 [DanC]
- the GRDDL spec has a dozen or so rules in it. I dunno to what extent spec writing is an interesting use case in RIF
- 18:28:24 [DanC]
- the rules that interest me tend to be policies that involve quoting.
- 18:28:55 [DanC]
- "you can't assign an action to somebody who isn't at the meeting" is a pretty interesting rule that doesn't involve quoting
- 18:29:16 [DanC]
- I wonder if that one is doable with OWL 1.1 property chaining
- 18:29:35 [DanC]
- action o owner <= attendee
- 18:30:30 [timbl]
- agenda+ agenda bashing
- 18:30:56 [timbl]
- agenda+ around the table report last week progess or otherwaise
- 18:31:17 [Zakim]
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- 18:31:22 [RalphS]
- zakim, this is dig
- 18:31:22 [Zakim]
- ok, RalphS; that matches DIG_weekly()2:30PM
- 18:31:23 [timbl]
- agenda+ around the table report last week progess or otherwaise
- 18:31:29 [timbl]
- agenda+ agenda bashing
- 18:31:31 [kennyluck]
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- 18:31:34 [RalphS]
- zakim, mit531 has Lalana, TimBL, Kenny, Sonia, Yosi, Ralph
- 18:31:35 [Zakim]
- +Lalana, TimBL, Kenny, Sonia, Yosi, Ralph; got it
- 18:31:42 [RalphS]
- zakim, mit531 also has David
- 18:31:42 [Zakim]
- +David; got it
- 18:32:12 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 18:33:12 [soniaswim]
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- 18:33:28 [RalphS]
- Zakim, mit531 also has Apoorva, Joe
- 18:33:28 [Zakim]
- +Apoorva, Joe; got it
- 18:33:35 [RalphS]
- Meeting: DIG
- 18:33:39 [RalphS]
- Chair: TimBL
- 18:33:52 [RalphS]
- scribenick: lkagal
- 18:34:37 [timbl]
- agenda+ Tabulator SPARQL update server
- 18:34:38 [lkagal]
- timbl: 2 minutes around the table. Then talk about protocol between tabulator and server.
- 18:34:54 [timbl]
- agenda+ configuration.js
- 18:35:13 [yosi_s]
- agenda + the meaning of section 14 of rfc2616
- 18:35:34 [RalphS]
- Yosi: aka Accept:
- 18:35:50 [DanC]
- hmm... "minor changes" as a commit message...
- 18:35:53 [RalphS]
- zakim, take up agendum 1
- 18:35:53 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "around the table report last week progess or otherwaise" taken up [from timbl]
- 18:36:00 [timbl]
- topic: Around the table
- 18:36:09 [timbl]
- Lalana: We had a NICECAP meeting
- 18:36:23 [DanC]
- (NICECAP and DTO... are those known things? I wonder if they're easy to find from the DIG homepage)
- 18:36:25 [timbl]
- about the DTO-funded project E2ESA
- 18:36:29 [timbl]
- which went well.
- 18:36:37 [lkagal]
- TAMI/DTO project current status: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/inprogress/TAMI.Overview.html
- 18:36:48 [RalphS]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/inprogress/TAMI.Overview.html TAMI status
- 18:36:50 [timbl]
- End -End Semantic Accountability
- 18:38:20 [RalphS]
- Lalana: we're hoping to have a policy development course next year
- 18:38:29 [RalphS]
- s/year/term/
- 18:38:40 [RalphS]
- ... so we're working on making a working reasoner before then
- 18:39:55 [timbl]
- The reasoner will be in scheme to be compatible with earlier work
- 18:40:37 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 18:40:58 [DanC]
- "reformatting comments" is better than "minor changes"
- 18:41:07 [DanC]
- 4.11 Sorting Results
- 18:41:09 [DanC]
- oops
- 18:41:48 [DanC]
- rev 3343 changes a function name; in C, that's a big deal. how about javascript?
- 18:42:10 [lkagal]
- ralph: no dig work over past week
- 18:42:36 [lkagal]
- yosi: someone discovered bug in cwm that I'm trying to fix
- 18:43:09 [DanC]
- is this the bug you just mentioned, yosi? "sparql/detailed.tests#t1001 fails" http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cwm-bugs/2007Jul/0000.html
- 18:43:12 [RalphS]
- q+ to use 30 more seconds of my 2 minutes
- 18:44:26 [timbl]
- agenda+ Python or Scheme and Javascript
- 18:44:46 [yosi_s]
- DanC, that's right
- 18:44:56 [lkagal]
- Ralph: 1 press release. PURL service ?
- 18:45:32 [lkagal]
- Ralph: EricM's group to provide 303 redirects
- 18:45:36 [RalphS]
- Ralph: PURL service will be updated to support 303 redirects
- 18:45:58 [lkagal]
- PURL = persistent URLs
- 18:46:01 [timbl]
- agenda+ drag and Drop demo
- 18:47:27 [lkagal]
- Kenny: added drag and drop for Tabulator
- 18:47:41 [lkagal]
- Kenny: need to register datatypes
- 18:47:48 [timbl]
- agenda+ Clipboard datatypes .. registering datatypes
- 18:48:03 [DanC]
- (usecase/story of drag-n-drop?)
- 18:48:39 [timbl]
- agenda 7
- 18:49:08 [lkagal]
- Kenny: can drag n3 file into firefox tab. Think it will be possible to run cwm inside firefox because we can run shell scripts.
- 18:50:02 [lkagal]
- David: I added tab and shift + tab
- 18:50:23 [RalphS]
- Agenda: https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2007-July/001244.html
- 18:50:50 [DanC]
- agenda + toward release: documenting, testing new features
- 18:51:25 [lkagal]
- David: In the table view most of the data is lost. For editing we need this info.
- 18:51:47 [timbl]
- (datya connetig the statemenst in et store wiht the display)
- 18:51:53 [lkagal]
- Joe: Working with EricP on sparql update.
- 18:52:20 [DanC]
- for tab/shift-tab, it would be nice to note that as a new feature in the issue tracker; there's a "show me all new features" report that we (should) use at release time
- 18:52:43 [lkagal]
- Joe: Authentication required before updating. Connection with algae ?
- 18:54:19 [DanC]
- presbrey, that sounds cool. is there anybody else who knows how to use it?
- 18:54:43 [lkagal]
- Joe: already connected with Algae using sparql update. EricP is finishing delete in Algae.
- 18:55:05 [lkagal]
- s/update/insert
- 18:55:59 [lkagal]
- Joe: EricP doesn't like Andy's sparql update so I've updated tabulator to use EricP's language.
- 18:57:00 [lkagal]
- Timbl: I'd prefer it if you used Andy's language.
- 18:57:17 [DanC]
- (I can't concur with tim here; I haven't looked at Andy's syntax vs Eric's... though I agree that differences should get worked out, preferably with discussion archives in public-sparql-dev@w3.org )
- 18:57:34 [lkagal]
- Ralph: You shouldn't lose support for Andy's language
- 18:59:18 [lkagal]
- Ralph: Joe, it would be good to figure out if there any particular advantage of using one over the other in Tabulator.
- 18:59:38 [timbl]
- http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update.html
- 18:59:47 [presbrey]
- http://128.31.35.90/yacker/uploads/SPARQLseqFed?lang=perl&markup=html
- 19:00:17 [RalphS]
- http://www.w3.org/1999/02/26-modules/User/Algae-HOWTO.html
- 19:00:51 [RalphS]
- http://www.w3.org/2004/05/06-Algae/
- 19:02:18 [lkagal]
- Timbl: Welcome Apoorva
- 19:02:35 [DanC]
- and in what programming language do you expect to do it ;-)
- 19:02:39 [lkagal]
- Apoorva: We will be developing a policy reasoner in Scheme
- 19:02:51 [DanC]
- scheme. sigh.
- 19:03:24 [lkagal]
- Apoorva: I'll be working on the ReiPlus language
- 19:06:00 [yosi_s]
- DanC, what's wrong with scheme? lambda? if so, we can try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlambda
- 19:07:18 [DanC]
- what's wrong with scheme is that every scheme project seems to make its own customized dialect of scheme; it's quite difficult to read scheme code, in my experience. there's little appreciation for "follow your nose"
- 19:07:22 [lkagal]
- Sonia: I'm working on coloring in the outline view.
- 19:07:42 [timbl]
- Looking at http://web.mit.edu/soniaswm/Public/foaf.rdf#me
- 19:07:53 [timbl]
- in tabulator much of the data is green.
- 19:08:12 [timbl]
- Currently any CC licece wil turn green. In future, thi will be programmable.
- 19:08:36 [DanC]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue203 reflect CC license in outline view
- 19:09:04 [lkagal]
- Sonia: If you select a certain license, all data with that license will turn green.
- 19:09:46 [lkagal]
- Timbl: I was on vacation last week !
- 19:10:17 [timbl]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/data
- 19:12:01 [lkagal]
- Timbl: at least from w3c. I put some views on the tabulator. There is a table, cog wheel, and the rdf symbol next to the uri
- 19:13:05 [DanC]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue81 Issue81 document/graph view
- 19:14:18 [lkagal]
- Timbl: cog provides details of the request
- 19:15:11 [lkagal]
- Timbl: rdf symbol show a serialization of the file
- 19:19:19 [lkagal]
- Timbl: I've added base to cwm
- 19:19:32 [RalphS]
- s/base/@base/
- 19:19:41 [timbl]
- @base <../foo>
- 19:20:33 [timbl]
- ---------------------------
- 19:20:43 [timbl]
- agenda?
- 19:21:03 [DanC]
- Zakim, close item 1
- 19:21:04 [DanC]
- Zakim, close item 2
- 19:21:04 [Zakim]
- I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
- 19:21:06 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, agenda bashing, closed
- 19:21:07 [Zakim]
- I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 19:21:08 [Zakim]
- 1. around the table report last week progess or otherwaise [from timbl]
- 19:21:42 [yosi_s]
- agenda?
- 19:22:34 [RalphS]
- zakim, take up agendum 7
- 19:22:35 [Zakim]
- agendum 7. "drag and Drop demo" taken up [from timbl]
- 19:22:55 [RalphS]
- zakim, order 3,5
- 19:22:55 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'order 3,5', RalphS
- 19:22:59 [RalphS]
- zakim, agenda order 3,5
- 19:22:59 [Zakim]
- ok, RalphS
- 19:23:14 [lkagal]
- Kenny demos drag and drop...
- 19:23:31 [RalphS]
- action: Ralph buy Kenny a miniDVI->VGA adapter
- 19:24:06 [yosi_s]
- I had always assumed that n3 files just appeared out of the aether
- 19:24:31 [lkagal]
- Kenny opens a dir, selects an n3 file, and drags it to a firefox tab.
- 19:25:08 [lkagal]
- Kenny: you can also open a URI in tabulator in another tab. For example, drag and drop Joe's foaf.
- 19:25:18 [DanC]
- q+ to ask for drag-n-drop tutorial, a la calendar, query tutorials
- 19:25:24 [timbl]
- Kenny drags a cell from tabulator onto a ffox tab and it opens in that tab.
- 19:27:00 [lkagal]
- Kenny drags an image file into Joe's foaf file as his depiction.
- 19:27:49 [lkagal]
- Kenny: need to add it to the predicate
- 19:28:19 [DanC]
- (if I open http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/ in a separate window and drag the photo from there to "Depiction", then firefox replaces the whole tabulator with the photo)
- 19:28:38 [lkagal]
- Kenny: can also drag text into an editor.
- 19:30:25 [DanC]
- ~/projects/tabulator/ajar$ hg log --date ">2007-07-09"|grep changeset|wc
- 19:30:25 [DanC]
- 71 142 2130
- 19:30:35 [DanC]
- so 71 commits in the last week. busy week!
- 19:32:15 [lkagal]
- Kenny: If you add an empty document to the kb, it shows up as a NewRDFDocument.
- 19:32:47 [timbl]
- ---------------------------------------
- 19:34:11 [DanC]
- (I just updated http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/tabulator/ w.r.t. svn)
- 19:34:59 [yosi_s]
- DanC, I still cannot hg pull that URI
- 19:35:20 [DanC]
- what happens when you try, yosi_s ?
- 19:35:31 [yosi_s]
- 30-7-176:/tmp yosi$ hg pull http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/tabulator/
- 19:35:31 [yosi_s]
- abort: There is no Mercurial repository here (.hg not found)!
- 19:35:37 [timbl]
- agenda?
- 19:35:40 [DanC]
- you have to hg init first
- 19:35:46 [DanC]
- or use hg clone rather than hg pull, yosi
- 19:36:07 [RalphS]
- zakim, close agendum 7
- 19:36:08 [Zakim]
- I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, RalphS
- 19:36:13 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to ask for drag-n-drop tutorial, a la calendar, query tutorials
- 19:36:29 [RalphS]
- next agendum
- 19:36:48 [timbl]
- http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2616.html
- 19:36:57 [RalphS]
- zakim, take up agendum 5
- 19:36:57 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "the meaning of section 14 of rfc2616" taken up [from yosi_s]
- 19:37:11 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html
- 19:37:47 [lkagal]
- Yosi: Are you allowed to have more than 1 accept header ?
- 19:38:02 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.1 14.1 Accept
- 19:38:06 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html
- 19:38:43 [DanC]
- "Multiple message-header fields with the same field-name MAY be present in a message if and only if the entire field-value for that header field is defined as a comma-separated list [i.e., #(values)]."
- 19:38:45 [lkagal]
- DanC: The syntactic details of the accept header are not in the accept section but in the syntax section
- 19:39:57 [lkagal]
- Yosi: Timbl tried to allow multiple accept headers in cwm but this didn't work because python http libraries don't allow it.
- 19:40:36 [lkagal]
- Yosi: this caused the error that was reported yesterday
- 19:40:45 [yosi_s]
- ericP was asking if cwm should also have a choice in accept: for turtle
- 19:40:54 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-swbp-vocab-pub-20060314/
- 19:41:14 [DanC]
- "All comments are welcome and may be sent to public-swbp-wg@w3.org; "
- 19:41:49 [RalphS]
- -. http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/
- 19:41:58 [RalphS]
- -> http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ Best Practice Recipes for Publishing RDF Vocabularies
- 19:42:46 [RalphS]
- move to next agendum
- 19:42:46 [Zakim]
- agendum 9. "toward release: documenting, testing new features" taken up [from DanC]
- 19:43:05 [DanC]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tut/querytut.html
- 19:45:16 [DanC]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue?@columns=title,id,activity,actor&@sort=-activity&@group=priority&@filter=priority,status&@pagesize=50&@startwith=0&priority=4&status=8&@dispname=Features%20done features done report
- 19:47:15 [DanC]
- "I wouldn't do any global changes without Jim here" <- having more tests (esp automated tests) can avoid that sort of thing, sometimes.
- 19:50:05 [DanC]
- stuff tends to get stuck in "done-cbb" and/or "testing" state; I wonder if there's anything to be done about that.
- 19:51:29 [DanC]
- "Show rdfs:comment when hover over a node" is marked done-cbb; in what way could it be better, kennyluck ? I'm inclined to create new issues for the cbb parts and mark this one done
- 19:52:00 [RalphS]
- '252 instances' would work pretty well
- 19:53:03 [DanC]
- yes, use "testing" status for "done but not documented"
- 19:53:10 [yosi_s]
- done, and has reached a state of absolute perfection that cannot be improved upon
- 19:53:19 [kennyluck]
- Actually this feature is not on the trunk, so it's actually 'deffered' or 'removed'
- 19:53:25 [RalphS]
- '1..20 of 252' would also be ok
- 19:54:23 [DanC]
- -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue176 Show rdfs:comment when hover over a node
- 19:56:09 [kennyluck]
- implemented in a long-time-ago branch
- 19:56:12 [kennyluck]
- https://svn.csail.mit.edu/kennyluck/tab/tab.html
- 19:56:19 [DanC]
- I tend to stick stuff in "testing" when I see some claim that it's done (e.g. in a commit message) that I haven't verified myself.
- 19:57:45 [yosi_s]
- Zakim, remind me in 3 minutes that it is 4:00
- 19:57:46 [Zakim]
- ok, yosi_s
- 19:59:01 [DanC]
- agenda?
- 19:59:23 [DanC]
- 2nd motion to adjourn.
- 19:59:57 [presbrey]
- presbrey has quit ("Leaving.")
- 20:00:31 [RalphS]
- zakim, list attendees
- 20:00:31 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been Lalana, TimBL, Kenny, Sonia, Yosi, Ralph, David, DanC, Apoorva, Joe, Sandro
- 20:00:46 [Zakim]
- yosi_s, you asked to be reminded at this time that it is 4:00
- 20:01:35 [Zakim]
- -MIT531
- 20:01:42 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 20:01:52 [timbl]
- Sorru, DanC, the phone lost power
- 20:02:00 [timbl]
- But we had adjourned
- 20:02:53 [lkagal]
- lkagal has quit ()
- 20:03:39 [lkagal]
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- 20:03:46 [DanC]
- right, we're adjourned.
- 20:06:42 [Zakim]
- DIG_weekly()2:30PM has ended
- 20:06:43 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Lalana, TimBL, Kenny, Sonia, Yosi, Ralph, David, DanC, Apoorva, Joe, Sandro
- 20:09:46 [DanC]
- yosi_s, any luck with http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/tabulator/ ?
- 20:10:10 [yosi_s]
- yes, a hg clone worked
- 20:11:15 [DanC]
- I found hg fairly easy to learn; I guess it matches my intuitions
- 20:12:40 [yosi_s]
- I've found for my own use cases that bzr is a better match for me; even if it is really slow
- 20:13:19 [DanC]
- bzr looks quite tempting; it seems to fit into the web a little nicer. I have managed to avoid using it so far, but I doubt I can avoid it much longer.
- 20:14:16 [DanC]
- bzr is slow... are you using it on huge projects? or is it slow even on small/medium projects?
- 20:14:34 [yosi_s]
- on huge projects it is unusably slow
- 20:14:47 [yosi_s]
- I use it on small projects, where it is merely slow
- 20:15:52 [yosi_s]
- cvs is slow too
- 20:16:18 [DanC]
- cvs is slow any time a network is involved
- 20:16:52 [yosi_s]
- I made a copy of the cwm tree in bzr and hg
- 20:16:54 [DanC]
- if the ,v files are local, cvs is reasonably fast, no?
- 20:16:56 [yosi_s]
- changed one file
- 20:16:58 [yosi_s]
- ran diff
- 20:17:15 [yosi_s]
- I don't remember the numbers
- 20:17:24 [yosi_s]
- I seem to remember that hg was around 100 times faster
- 20:17:29 [Zakim]
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- 20:17:51 [yosi_s]
- I don't know about local cvs; I've never done it
- 20:18:18 [RalphS]
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- 20:18:27 [DanC]
- in a way, hg cheats by copying the repository so that diff is faster...
- 20:18:47 [DanC]
- ... but since its repository is often smaller than the checked-out version (due to compression), it's not bad at all.
- 20:19:40 [yosi_s]
- both hg and bzr keep a local copy of the repository
- 20:19:46 [yosi_s]
- that should not have mattered
- 20:20:27 [DanC]
- connolly@pav:~/projects/tabulator/ajar$ du -s .hg
- 20:20:27 [DanC]
- 15884 .hg
- 20:20:27 [DanC]
- connolly@pav:~/projects/tabulator/ajar$ du -s .
- 20:20:27 [DanC]
- 54879 .
- 20:20:51 [DanC]
- i.e. the whole project history of the tabulator is smaller than the checked-out version.
- 20:21:06 [davidli]
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- 20:21:24 [DanC]
- (since 15 is less than half of 54)
- 20:22:18 [DanC]
- oops; I have .svn too
- 20:23:31 [kennyluck]
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- 20:24:27 [yosi_s]
- where in http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ is the line I'm supposed to complain about?
- 20:24:32 [yosi_s]
- what does it say?
- 20:24:35 [yosi_s]
- what should it say?
- 20:24:38 [DanC]
- ~/projects/tabulator/ajar$ hg archive -t files /tmp/tabr
- 20:24:44 [DanC]
- ~/projects/tabulator/ajar$ du -s /tmp/tabr
- 20:24:44 [DanC]
- 17626 /tmp/tabr
- 20:25:56 [timbl]
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- 20:26:16 [DanC]
- complain... good question. I just looked at all occurrences of "application/rdf+xml" and I don't see any problems
- 20:26:38 [yosi_s]
- what doe the line
- 20:26:39 [yosi_s]
- RewriteCond %{HTTP_ACCEPT} application/rdf\+xml
- 20:26:41 [yosi_s]
- mean?
- 20:27:46 [DanC]
- I can only guess, but I doubt that helps
- 20:32:14 [soniaswim]
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- 20:37:21 [DanC]
- yosi_s, I suggest you mail timbl, copy www-archive, and maybe me and ralph
- 20:58:30 [yosi_s]
- DanC, I sent something
- 20:58:46 [DanC]
- cool
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