IRC log of dig on 2007-11-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- topic is: DIG meets most Mondays at 2:30pET
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- Users on #dig: DIGlogger sandro DanC das05r das05r_ sbp ericP Ralph eikeon
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- djweitzner has changed the topic to: DIG meeting today 2:30-4pmET
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- 19:33:21 [timbl]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/formula-simple-1.n3
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- 19:33:57 [timbl]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/formula-subject.n3
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- 19:34:15 [timbl]
- Hold on, thos eon the phone, Ralph is building a new phone for us to use
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- 19:34:39 [timbl]
- ok
- 19:34:52 [roberth]
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- 19:35:19 [oshani]
- timbl, http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/contexts.n3
- 19:35:35 [timbl]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/rules12.n3
- 19:36:25 [presbrey]
- hello everyone, I will join you at 3, regrets.
- 19:37:23 [timbl]
- eh?
- 19:37:27 [timbl]
- You were right there
- 19:38:16 [sandro]
- DIGlogger, pointer?
- 19:38:16 [sandro]
- See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2007-11-19#T19-38-16
- 19:38:17 [timbl]
- DIGlogger, pointer?
- 19:38:17 [timbl]
- See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2007-11-19#T19-38-17
- 19:38:31 [sandro]
- scribenick: sandro
- 19:38:58 [sandro]
- Topic: around the table
- 19:39:25 [sandro]
- Tim: Over the weekend I added some stuff, not completely tested, so Tabulator displays nested n3
- 19:40:24 [DanC]
- <DanC> Zakim, this is dig
- 19:40:24 [DanC]
- <Zakim> DanC, I see DIG_weekly()2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dig".
- 19:40:50 [timbl]
- Wikigenes
- 19:42:07 [sandro]
- free-text, ability to add interactions later
- 19:42:21 [timbl]
- DanC, our phone is not connected
- 19:42:52 [timbl]
- Now we are
- 19:44:09 [sandro]
- Agenda on board: 1. tabulator 2. TAMI UI Questions
- 19:44:50 [sandro]
- oshani: (TAMI stuff I don't understand)
- 19:45:03 [DanC]
- oshani, if you find time to send mail, it sounds like an interesting question. (about finding policies and such)
- 19:45:14 [sandro]
- Lalana: Working on TAMI deliverables. Danny and I submitted a proposal, to MicroSoft, for a 1-student project.
- 19:45:57 [sandro]
- Lalana: ... about marking up search-engine query logs with privacy data
- 19:46:21 [sandro]
- yosi: Trying to understand what my TAMI reasoner is supposed to do.
- 19:46:27 [roberth_]
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- 19:46:33 [oshani]
- DanC, it was actually a design question for the TAMI view. I'll send you a mail
- 19:47:14 [DanC]
- q+ to note ftf chat with Chime... re fuxi and applications of proof in the semantic web... and health care and life science... and sbp's re-implementation of cwm... and http://acrlblog.org/2007/05/24/time-for-academic-librarians-to-tune-in-to-the-semantic-web/
- 19:47:35 [DanC]
- oshani, I look forward to the message; send it to tami-team and/or diggers too, OK?
- 19:47:37 [sandro]
- Yosi: came across a "treat", which I used to spead up cwm's reasoning
- 19:48:49 [yosi_s]
- ISBN: 0934613710
- 19:48:56 [DanC]
- hmm... so zakim isn't really here at all
- 19:49:10 [sandro]
- Yosi: The book which defines it -- not in MIT libraries, and I can't find a copy.
- 19:49:16 [DanC]
- q+ to note success getting sam ruby's attention. http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/14/Phantasmagoric
- 19:50:09 [DanC]
- q+ to note success finding a M3 book http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/diary/56.html
- 19:50:26 [sandro]
- Treat: A New and Efficient Match Algorithm for Ai Production Systems (Research Notes in Artificial Intelligence) (Paperback)
- 19:50:26 [sandro]
- by Daniel P. Miranker (Author)
- 19:50:49 [sandro]
- TimBL: I'll order it from Amazon
- 19:50:52 [DanC]
- q+ to note success with html5lib (python) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0056.html
- 19:51:10 [timbl]
- q?
- 19:51:48 [yosi_s]
- I had seen that book referenced by http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Publications/Papers/2000091.pdf
- 19:51:49 [sandro]
- DanC: I met Chimezie face-to-face finally. The folks at Cleveland Clinic can't see the advantages of proof checking to life as they know it.
- 19:52:19 [sandro]
- DanC: Sean Palmer has re-implemented much of cwm, including rules I think.
- 19:53:22 [lkagal]
- http://acrlblog.org/2007/05/24/time-for-academic-librarians-to-tune-in-to-the-semantic-web/
- 19:54:20 [sandro]
- DanC: ACRLog, .... W3C is again listening to developers; ... Time For Academic Librarians To Tune In To The Semantic Web
- 19:55:00 [timbl]
- "Kevin Lawver: This was a surreal experience... Dan led a sing-along with a bunch of W3C folks, including Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the web, and lots and lots of folks who invented important pieces of it (like CSS, HTML, XHTML, etc). Fun, fun, fun.
- 19:55:00 [timbl]
- "
- 19:55:59 [sandro]
- DanC: doing scraping on backetball schedule, and html5lib worked nicely.
- 19:56:42 [sandro]
- Danny on call? Nope.
- 19:57:10 [DanC]
- Sandro: ...
- 19:57:34 [DanC]
- ... I think I have a solution for forward compatibility for RIF; better than RDF... wrote it up... in progress...
- 19:57:41 [DanC]
- (remind us the trademark?)
- 19:57:51 [DanC]
- ... thinking about document review ... ajax tools...
- 19:58:06 [DanC]
- ... thinking about meeting facilitation... scribing... wikis...
- 19:58:14 [DanC]
- ... driven by new OWL WG
- 19:58:18 [DanC]
- ... which is wiki-centric
- 19:58:47 [DanC]
- Sandro: and most excitingly, this idea of using HTML tables for RDF is working really well
- 19:59:37 [DanC]
- discover statement download .xls option is actually html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0058.html
- 20:00:51 [DanC]
- DanC: written an XSLT transformation?
- 20:00:59 [timbl]
- presbrey?
- 20:01:00 [DanC]
- Sandro: python so far. html->RDF/XML
- 20:01:00 [sandro]
- Sandro: no, Python.
- 20:01:06 [timbl]
- Danny?
- 20:01:12 [timbl]
- _______________________________________
- 20:02:24 [sandro]
- Agenda: Tabulator, Rif Extensibility, HTML, Tami
- 20:02:46 [DanC]
- (how many hops from this meeting to ryan lee? I'm interested to talk more about foaf/openid)
- 20:03:54 [DanC]
- (pointer?)
- 20:04:06 [sandro]
- Sandro: it might be a good idea to include a version number in the javascript filename
- 20:04:07 [timbl]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/data
- 20:04:14 [sandro]
- Tim: doing demo.....
- 20:05:06 [timbl]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab
- 20:05:17 [sandro]
- Tim: don't go to /data in your nav bar -- go to /tab, then past .../data into URI bar.
- 20:05:53 [timbl]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab?uri=http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/data
- 20:06:08 [sandro]
- Tim: There is a trick to making your firefox extension track the latest version in SVN.
- 20:07:17 [sandro]
- Tim: New feature --- shows you the triples in a file, in a nice format.
- 20:07:59 [sandro]
- Sandro: very nice, thank you! :-)
- 20:08:16 [sandro]
- Tim: Yeah, it's a bit of a duh. :-)
- 20:08:28 [DanC]
- q+ to ask that somebody blog about this new feature... or that somebody talk with sbp about it in #swig and get him to write it up
- 20:08:40 [timbl]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/rules12.n3
- 20:09:08 [sandro]
- Tm: attempt to show rules in round blobs.
- 20:09:12 [sandro]
- Sandro: I like it.
- 20:09:16 [sandro]
- DanC: That is cool!
- 20:09:23 [sbp]
- (timbl already did chat with me. I'd be happy to write it up if nobody else will)
- 20:09:42 [DanC]
- hmm... x p y vs p(x,y)
- 20:10:20 [DanC]
- <Zakim> +Danny
- 20:10:54 [yosi_s]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/reason/double.n3
- 20:11:58 [sandro]
- Tim: But this graphic representation of rules is quite buggy, it only works on a few examples.
- 20:12:20 [sandro]
- DanC: in math we wrote eats(cat, dog)
- 20:12:54 [sandro]
- Tim: I'm trying to write in the spirit of n3.
- 20:13:10 [DanC]
- TimBL: supposed to look like a form
- 20:13:29 [timbl]
- http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card
- 20:14:48 [DanC]
- TimBL: predicate grey; varies less; carries less info
- 20:16:14 [sandro]
- Sandro: I'd like to see the generated HTML there. (unclear how to get it.)
- 20:16:16 [DanC]
- Sandro: can I get the html for that? maybe copy/paste into email... maybe firebug...
- 20:16:48 [sandro]
- Tim: Somewhat motivated by Hal saying we should have this for TAMI.
- 20:17:01 [sandro]
- DanC: Can you explain to Sean?
- 20:17:06 [sandro]
- Tim: i did.
- 20:17:29 [sandro]
- Tim: We should not claim viictory on the rules viewer until it works for other people's rules.
- 20:17:58 [sandro]
- Dan: P'shaw! we should declare victory every time we rub two brain cells together.
- 20:18:08 [sandro]
- Tim: My blog has become too high profile.
- 20:18:14 [sandro]
- Sandro: write more junk in it. :-)
- 20:18:29 [timbl]
- ______________________________
- 20:18:33 [djweitzner]
- agenda?
- 20:18:38 [timbl]
- Topic: RIF Extensibility
- 20:18:53 [timbl]
- There are two parts to compatability -- forard and backward.
- 20:19:07 [timbl]
- Bacward is easy ... we have been doing it forever
- 20:19:28 [timbl]
- Forward is more difficult ... ho wdo you have sw do intellignet things wi a FUTURE format?
- 20:19:43 [DanC]
- agenda + story telling: reading breadcrumbs items to colleages (e.g. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/198 and the mathml co-chair)
- 20:19:50 [timbl]
- HTML i considered ioneering as it said ignore what you don't understand
- 20:19:57 [timbl]
- (many internet protocols before it?)
- 20:20:03 [timbl]
- XML does not do that
- 20:20:10 [DanC]
- http://esw.w3.org/topic/IgnoreUnknownTags
- 20:20:16 [timbl]
- Not wit schjemas or DTDs
- 20:20:21 [timbl]
- What do ou do about that?
- 20:20:34 [timbl]
- We want to be abl;e to mix and match from the huge sace of possible rule languages
- 20:20:41 [timbl]
- The two approaches are:
- 20:20:53 [DanC]
- re large space of growth: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AnarchicScalability
- 20:21:10 [timbl]
- 1. To kan for extensibility, with wildcards in gthe schema, a la XML mainstream, but I don't think you can precit well enough where you will want to go.
- 20:21:21 [timbl]
- 2. Instead, you imagine this processor before the input stage
- 20:21:40 [timbl]
- ... if it doesn't get what it expext, it hands off the input to a fall-back processor.
- 20:21:43 [yosi_s]
- sandro, you asked for the html copied from the tabulator of timbl's foaf file
- 20:21:46 [yosi_s]
- I copied it to http://people.csail.mit.edu/syosi/timbl_card.html
- 20:22:10 [timbl]
- Eg for HTML you could hand new HTMl to a thing whoch strips it down to old html.
- 20:22:19 [timbl]
- Or it could be arbitrarily complex.
- 20:22:39 [timbl]
- When you do this, you may be changing the semantics.
- 20:22:50 [DanC]
- (impact reminds me of q in http conneg)
- 20:23:05 [timbl]
- There is a domain-specific impact of missing bits - does it impact soundness, completeness, or performance?
- 20:24:02 [timbl]
- Tim: Isn't introdcution of usoundness non-forward compatibility?
- 20:24:37 [timbl]
- Sandro:
- 20:24:54 [timbl]
- It is iunclear how usful this will be , but flagging these three is useful
- 20:25:09 [timbl]
- Some people don't care about sound, otehr complete, already in the group.
- 20:25:31 [timbl]
- Eg Google reckons to be complete but unound.
- 20:26:06 [timbl]
- So the interesting thing for me i thi addreses the data integration problem, as I think it solves a lot fo the things we do with RDF and rules and diferent data formats.
- 20:26:21 [timbl]
- Different blog, syndicatin fromats, etc ... you could do fllbacks.
- 20:26:28 [DanC]
- (how does the consumer determine the fallback?)
- 20:26:43 [timbl]
- The frallback is written after and found by URI dereference.
- 20:27:04 [timbl]
- Written after the origvinal software.
- 20:27:35 [DanC]
- PXFIM
- 20:28:03 [DanC]
- "xml fallback"
- 20:28:20 [DanC]
- (you could be rude and call it "xml 5" ;-)
- 20:28:49 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/pxfim
- 20:28:57 [DanC]
- Cc: www-archive@w3.org
- 20:28:58 [DanC]
- Subject: Programmable XML Fallback and Impact Mechanism (PXFIM)
- 20:28:58 [DanC]
- Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:58:30 -0500 (21:58 CST)
- 20:29:04 [timbl]
- GXDDL
- 20:30:07 [timbl]
- ______________________________________________________
- 20:30:17 [DanC]
- (learning XSLT now... hmm... the python libraries are sufficiently mature that I might skip XSLT and do python if I were you, sandro)
- 20:31:43 [timbl]
- Danny: We shoudl chec in with RIF core ruels, not just milliions of rulelanguage dialects
- 20:31:53 [timbl]
- DanC: You don't have log:includes I suppose.
- 20:32:25 [djweitzner]
- djweitzner has quit ()
- 20:32:26 [sandro]
- Sandro: I don't think log:semantics is even in any RIF use cases....
- 20:32:30 [timbl]
- Tim: RIF should hve a use cass for log:semantics
- 20:32:44 [timbl]
- Danc: And quoted graphs
- 20:32:52 [DanC]
- does RIF BLD have function terms?
- 20:34:03 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/
- 20:34:07 [DanC]
- RIF Basic Logic Dialect
- 20:34:07 [DanC]
- W3C Working Draft 30 October 2007
- 20:34:12 [sandro]
- Sandro: So that's quoting in the common LP style, where you use function terms as a sort of pun for logic
- 20:34:14 [yosi_s]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-rif-bld-20071030/
- 20:34:54 [timbl]
- _________________________________________________________
- 20:35:38 [sandro]
- Sandro: the WG feels that document needs to be re-organized, and it's planned.
- 20:36:23 [timbl]
- RDF/t
- 20:36:31 [sandro]
- html tables thing?
- 20:36:41 [sandro]
- DanC: how about for next week?
- 20:36:46 [DanC]
- I seem to be available one week hence, 26 Nov
- 20:37:02 [sandro]
- regrets next week from Robert, Tim
- 20:37:03 [timbl]
- Regrets: TimBL, Robert
- 20:37:22 [amy]
- amy (n=amy@30-7-171.wireless.csail.mit.edu) has joined #dig
- 20:37:34 [timbl]
- ______________________________________________________________
- 20:38:55 [DanC]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/207
- 20:39:00 [DanC]
- brainstorming, issue tracking, and problem reporting... with tabulator?
- 20:39:00 [DanC]
- * view
- 20:39:00 [DanC]
- * edit
- 20:39:00 [DanC]
- Submitted by connolly on Mon, 2007-11-05
- 20:42:40 [sandro]
- Topic: More two minutes
- 20:42:59 [djweitzner]
- djweitzner (n=djweitzn@70.108.17.36) has joined #dig
- 20:43:43 [sandro]
- Joe: Working on exposing data from MIT Warehouse. Course information. I've written a namespace to expore the moria student data.
- 20:43:57 [DanC]
- (mines of moira? allusion to what? not tolkien, is it?)
- 20:44:23 [sandro]
- Joe: exports lists as RDF. Gives properties, like jabberID, openID, ... name isnt't given, because they don't usually expose that. it's in 'finger' but otherwise locked.
- 20:44:48 [sandro]
- yes, Tolkien
- 20:44:56 [sandro]
- Joe; i was looking at D2R.
- 20:45:01 [sandro]
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(Middle-earth)
- 20:45:24 [sandro]
- Tim: You could use dbview, but it doesn't do sparql.
- 20:45:47 [sandro]
- Joe: I'm sort of waiting to see what Sean does as a sparql parser.
- 20:45:53 [sandro]
- DanC: What about Yosi's?
- 20:46:01 [sandro]
- Yosi: I don't recommend he use it.
- 20:46:28 [sandro]
- Joe: I can commit it to dig repository, and you can run it in your own space
- 20:46:46 [sandro]
- Joe: MIT doesn't want to expose their Oracle database.
- 20:47:29 [sandro]
- Joe: A way to do it if you provide your warehouse id/pw.
- 20:48:10 [sandro]
- (Turns out it's actually MOIRA, not MORIA. Not Tolkien, after all.)
- 20:48:26 [sandro]
- http://web.mit.edu/warehouse/metadata/fields/moira_student4.html
- 20:48:52 [sandro]
- Joe: The layer we're talking about is just a sparql front end for SQL.
- 20:49:41 [sandro]
- Sandro: So can just-any-student get access to the database?
- 20:49:48 [sandro]
- Joe: No, I had to get special permission.
- 20:50:20 [sandro]
- Tim: The public access is the higher priority.
- 20:51:03 [sandro]
- Joe: The warehouse has people using 20-ish std queries, munged a bit.
- 20:51:40 [sandro]
- http://web.mit.edu/ist/warehouse/
- 20:51:54 [sandro]
- Joe: brio query.... not many folks use it.
- 20:52:54 [timbl]
- Danny: Where woudl the auth happen?
- 20:53:19 [timbl]
- Joe: Basic or digest, would allow you to list tables you have access to
- 20:53:53 [timbl]
- Joe: They don't want any oracle generioc user/passwords released.
- 20:54:07 [timbl]
- They also don't wnt people typing in kerberos passwords.
- 20:54:26 [timbl]
- Note the oracle and kerb passwords are currenlty disjoin, but in a while be merged.
- 20:55:54 [timbl]
- D2R has a script you should use which generates a default mapping
- 20:55:57 [timbl]
- in N3.
- 20:56:05 [timbl]
- You then hack that to make te mapping better.
- 20:56:17 [timbl]
- But it only looks at tables but not views.
- 20:56:23 [timbl]
- It doesn't se those.
- 20:59:53 [presbrey]
- New Advogato Features
- 20:59:53 [presbrey]
- FOAF updates: Trust rankings are now exported, making the data available to other users and websites. An external FOAF URI has been added, allowing users to link to an additional FOAF file.
- 21:00:23 [DanC]
- "FOAF updates: Trust rankings are now exported, making the data available to other users and websites. An external FOAF URI has been added, allowing users to link to an additional FOAF file." -- http://www.advogato.org/person/robogato/diary.html
- 21:01:27 [presbrey]
- http://www.advogato.org/person/presbrey/foaf.rdf
- 21:01:37 [presbrey]
- http://www.advogato.org/person/presbrey/foaf.rdf#me
- 21:02:05 [DanC]
- (pointer to online tabulator again, pls?)
- 21:02:11 [yosi_s]
- DanC, http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab
- 21:03:42 [timbl]
- http://esw.w3.org/topic/FoafSites
- 21:05:57 [yosi_s]
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- 21:06:00 [DanC]
- indeed. I see { joe is member of Master } . cool.
- 21:06:11 [DanC]
- <Zakim> -Danny
- 21:06:11 [DanC]
- <Zakim> -DanC
- 21:06:48 [roberth]
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- 21:06:57 [DanC]
- that was a pretty cool meeting; it's going to take some discipline to not play with all the cool toys we talked about.
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- 21:21:02 [lkagal]
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- 21:21:05 [oshani]
- http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/projects/tami/output1.n3
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- 21:50:03 [timbl]
- ": that was a pretty cool meeting;" -- Good :)
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- 21:54:50 [timbl]
- Hmmmm .. trying output1.n3 cut down .. works with one of the forumulae in it
- 21:56:23 [timbl]
- grrrr chris serbves as x-turtle
- 21:56:44 [timbl]
- http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/amord/tms#Premise
- 21:56:49 [timbl]
- should be text/rdf+n3
- 22:01:52 [oshani]
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- 22:07:12 [timbl]
- It seems to be hanging downloading the owl namespace dcoument
- 22:07:51 [timbl]
- Yes. weird.
- 22:24:02 [timbl]
- Ah ... it is the list in the final premise
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