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12:42:23 <kubrick.freenode.net> topic is: DIG meets most Mondays at 2:30pET
12:42:23 <kubrick.freenode.net> Users on #dig: DIGlogger sandro DanC das05r das05r_ sbp ericP Ralph eikeon 
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19:33:21 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/formula-simple-1.n3
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19:33:57 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/formula-subject.n3
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19:34:15 <timbl> Hold on, thos eon the phone, Ralph is building a new phone for us to use
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19:34:39 <timbl> ok
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19:35:19 <oshani> timbl, http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/contexts.n3
19:35:35 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/rules12.n3
19:36:25 <presbrey> hello everyone, I will join you at 3, regrets.
19:37:23 <timbl> eh?
19:37:27 <timbl> You were right there
19:38:16 <sandro> DIGlogger, pointer?
19:38:16 <sandro> See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2007-11-19#T19-38-16
19:38:17 <timbl> DIGlogger, pointer?
19:38:17 <timbl> See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2007-11-19#T19-38-17
19:38:31 <sandro> scribenick: sandro
19:38:58 <sandro> Topic: around the table
19:39:25 <sandro> Tim: Over the weekend I added some stuff, not completely tested, so Tabulator displays nested n3
19:40:24 <DanC> <DanC> Zakim, this is dig
19:40:24 <DanC> <Zakim> DanC, I see DIG_weekly()2:30PM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be dig".
19:40:50 <timbl> Wikigenes
19:42:07 <sandro> free-text, ability to add interactions later
19:42:21 <timbl> DanC, our phone is not connected
19:42:52 <timbl> Now we are
19:44:09 <sandro> Agenda on board:   1.  tabulator       2.    TAMI UI Questions     
19:44:50 <sandro> oshani: (TAMI stuff I don't understand)
19:45:03 <DanC> oshani, if you find time to send mail, it sounds like an interesting question. (about finding policies and such)
19:45:14 <sandro> Lalana: Working on TAMI deliverables.   Danny and I submitted a proposal, to MicroSoft, for a 1-student project.
19:45:57 <sandro> Lalana: ... about marking up search-engine query  logs with privacy data
19:46:21 <sandro> yosi: Trying to understand what my TAMI reasoner is supposed to do.
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19:46:33 <oshani> DanC, it was actually a design question for the TAMI view. I'll send you a mail
19:47:14 <DanC> q+ to note ftf chat with Chime... re fuxi and applications of proof in the semantic web... and health care and life science... and sbp's re-implementation of cwm... and http://acrlblog.org/2007/05/24/time-for-academic-librarians-to-tune-in-to-the-semantic-web/
19:47:35 <DanC> oshani, I look forward to the message; send it to tami-team and/or diggers too, OK?
19:47:37 <sandro> Yosi: came across a "treat", which I used to spead up cwm's reasoning
19:48:49 <yosi_s> ISBN: 0934613710
19:48:56 <DanC> hmm... so zakim isn't really here at all
19:49:10 <sandro> Yosi: The book which defines it -- not in MIT libraries, and I can't find a copy.
19:49:16 <DanC> q+ to note success getting sam ruby's attention. http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/11/14/Phantasmagoric
19:50:09 <DanC> q+ to note success finding a M3 book http://www.advogato.org/person/connolly/diary/56.html
19:50:26 <sandro> Treat: A New and Efficient Match Algorithm for Ai Production Systems (Research Notes in Artificial Intelligence) (Paperback)
19:50:26 <sandro> by Daniel P. Miranker (Author)
19:50:49 <sandro> TimBL: I'll order it from Amazon
19:50:52 <DanC> q+ to note success with html5lib (python) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0056.html
19:51:10 <timbl> q?
19:51:48 <yosi_s> I had seen that book referenced by http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/Publications/Papers/2000091.pdf
19:51:49 <sandro> DanC: I met Chimezie face-to-face finally.   The folks at Cleveland Clinic can't see the advantages of proof checking to life as they know it.
19:52:19 <sandro> DanC: Sean Palmer has re-implemented much of cwm, including rules I think.
19:53:22 <lkagal> http://acrlblog.org/2007/05/24/time-for-academic-librarians-to-tune-in-to-the-semantic-web/
19:54:20 <sandro> DanC: ACRLog, ....      W3C is again listening to developers; ...   Time For Academic Librarians To Tune In To The Semantic Web
19:55:00 <timbl> "Kevin Lawver: This was a surreal experience... Dan led a sing-along with a bunch of W3C folks, including Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the web, and lots and lots of folks who invented important pieces of it (like CSS, HTML, XHTML, etc). Fun, fun, fun.
19:55:00 <timbl> "
19:55:59 <sandro> DanC: doing scraping on backetball schedule, and html5lib worked nicely.
19:56:42 <sandro> Danny on call?  Nope.
19:57:10 <DanC> Sandro: ...
19:57:34 <DanC> ... I think I have a solution for forward compatibility for RIF; better than RDF... wrote it up... in progress...
19:57:41 <DanC> (remind us the trademark?)
19:57:51 <DanC> ... thinking about document review ... ajax tools...
19:58:06 <DanC> ... thinking about meeting facilitation... scribing... wikis...
19:58:14 <DanC> ... driven by new OWL WG
19:58:18 <DanC> ... which is wiki-centric
19:58:47 <DanC> Sandro: and most excitingly, this idea of using HTML tables for RDF is working really well
19:59:37 <DanC> discover statement download .xls option is actually html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0058.html
20:00:51 <DanC> DanC: written an XSLT transformation?
20:00:59 <timbl> presbrey?
20:01:00 <DanC> Sandro: python so far. html->RDF/XML
20:01:00 <sandro> Sandro: no, Python.    
20:01:06 <timbl> Danny?
20:01:12 <timbl> _______________________________________
20:02:24 <sandro> Agenda:  Tabulator, Rif Extensibility, HTML, Tami
20:02:46 <DanC> (how many hops from this meeting to ryan lee? I'm interested to talk more about foaf/openid)
20:03:54 <DanC> (pointer?)
20:04:06 <sandro> Sandro: it might be a good idea to include a version number in the javascript filename
20:04:07 <timbl> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/data
20:04:14 <sandro> Tim: doing demo.....
20:05:06 <timbl> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab
20:05:17 <sandro> Tim: don't go to /data in your nav bar --   go to /tab, then past .../data into URI bar.
20:05:53 <timbl> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab?uri=http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/data
20:06:08 <sandro> Tim: There is a trick to making your firefox extension track the latest version in SVN.
20:07:17 <sandro> Tim: New feature --- shows you the triples in a file, in a nice format.
20:07:59 <sandro> Sandro: very nice, thank you!   :-)
20:08:16 <sandro> Tim: Yeah, it's a bit of a duh.  :-)
20:08:28 <DanC> q+ to ask that somebody blog about this new feature... or that somebody talk with sbp about it in #swig and get him to write it up
20:08:40 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/rules12.n3
20:09:08 <sandro> Tm: attempt to show rules in round blobs.
20:09:12 <sandro> Sandro: I like it.
20:09:16 <sandro> DanC: That is cool!
20:09:23 <sbp> (timbl already did chat with me. I'd be happy to write it up if nobody else will)
20:09:42 <DanC> hmm... x p y      vs  p(x,y)
20:10:20 <DanC> <Zakim> +Danny
20:10:54 <yosi_s> http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/reason/double.n3
20:11:58 <sandro> Tim: But this graphic representation of rules is quite buggy, it only works on a few examples.
20:12:20 <sandro> DanC: in math we wrote eats(cat, dog)
20:12:54 <sandro> Tim: I'm trying to write in the spirit of n3.
20:13:10 <DanC> TimBL: supposed to look like a form
20:13:29 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card
20:14:48 <DanC> TimBL: predicate grey; varies less; carries less info
20:16:14 <sandro> Sandro: I'd like to see the generated HTML there.    (unclear how to get it.)
20:16:16 <DanC> Sandro: can I get the html for that? maybe copy/paste into email... maybe firebug...
20:16:48 <sandro> Tim: Somewhat motivated by Hal saying we should have this for TAMI.
20:17:01 <sandro> DanC: Can you explain to Sean?
20:17:06 <sandro> Tim: i did.
20:17:29 <sandro> Tim: We should not claim viictory on the rules viewer until it works for other people's rules.
20:17:58 <sandro> Dan: P'shaw!    we should declare victory every time we rub two brain cells together.
20:18:08 <sandro> Tim: My blog has become too high profile.
20:18:14 <sandro> Sandro: write more junk in it.  :-)
20:18:29 <timbl> ______________________________
20:18:33 <djweitzner> agenda?
20:18:38 <timbl> Topic:  RIF Extensibility
20:18:53 <timbl> There are two parts to compatability -- forard and backward.
20:19:07 <timbl> Bacward is easy ... we have been doing it forever
20:19:28 <timbl> Forward is more difficult ... ho wdo you have sw do intellignet things wi a FUTURE   format?
20:19:43 <DanC> agenda + story telling: reading breadcrumbs items to colleages (e.g. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/198 and the mathml co-chair)
20:19:50 <timbl> HTML i considered ioneering as it said ignore what you don't understand
20:19:57 <timbl> (many internet protocols before it?)
20:20:03 <timbl> XML does not do that
20:20:10 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/IgnoreUnknownTags
20:20:16 <timbl> Not wit schjemas or DTDs
20:20:21 <timbl> What do ou do about that?
20:20:34 <timbl> We want to be abl;e to mix and match from the huge sace of possible rule languages
20:20:41 <timbl> The two approaches are:
20:20:53 <DanC> re large space of growth: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AnarchicScalability
20:21:10 <timbl> 1. To kan for extensibility, with wildcards in gthe schema, a la XML mainstream, but I don't think you can precit well enough where you  will want to go.
20:21:21 <timbl> 2. Instead, you imagine this processor before the input stage
20:21:40 <timbl> ... if it doesn't get what it expext, it hands off the input to a fall-back processor.
20:21:43 <yosi_s> sandro, you asked for the html copied from the tabulator of timbl's foaf file
20:21:46 <yosi_s> I copied it to http://people.csail.mit.edu/syosi/timbl_card.html
20:22:10 <timbl> Eg  for HTML you could hand new HTMl to a thing whoch strips it down to old html.
20:22:19 <timbl> Or it could be arbitrarily complex.
20:22:39 <timbl> When you do this, you may be changing the semantics.
20:22:50 <DanC> (impact reminds me of q in http conneg)
20:23:05 <timbl> There is a domain-specific impact of missing bits - does it impact soundness, completeness, or performance?
20:24:02 <timbl> Tim: Isn't  introdcution of usoundness non-forward compatibility?
20:24:37 <timbl> Sandro: 
20:24:54 <timbl> It is iunclear how usful this will be , but flagging these three is useful
20:25:09 <timbl> Some people don't care about sound, otehr complete, already in the group.
20:25:31 <timbl> Eg Google reckons to be complete but unound.
20:26:06 <timbl> So the interesting thing for me i thi addreses the data integration problem, as I think it solves a lot fo the things we do with RDF and rules and diferent data formats.
20:26:21 <timbl> Different blog, syndicatin fromats, etc ... you could do fllbacks.
20:26:28 <DanC> (how does the consumer determine the fallback?)
20:26:43 <timbl> The frallback is written after and found by URI dereference.
20:27:04 <timbl> Written after the origvinal software.
20:27:35 <DanC> PXFIM
20:28:03 <DanC> "xml fallback"
20:28:20 <DanC> (you could be rude and call it "xml 5" ;-)
20:28:49 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/pxfim
20:28:57 <DanC> Cc: 	www-archive@w3.org
20:28:58 <DanC> Subject: 	Programmable XML Fallback and Impact Mechanism (PXFIM)
20:28:58 <DanC> Date: 	Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:58:30 -0500 (21:58 CST)
20:29:04 <timbl> GXDDL
20:30:07 <timbl> ______________________________________________________
20:30:17 <DanC> (learning XSLT now... hmm... the python libraries are sufficiently mature that I might skip XSLT and do python if I were you, sandro)
20:31:43 <timbl> Danny: We shoudl chec  in with RIF core ruels, not just milliions of rulelanguage dialects
20:31:53 <timbl> DanC:  You don't have log:includes I suppose.
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20:32:26 <sandro> Sandro: I don't think log:semantics is even in any RIF use cases....
20:32:30 <timbl> Tim:   RIF should hve a use cass for log:semantics
20:32:44 <timbl> Danc:  And quoted graphs
20:32:52 <DanC> does RIF BLD have function terms?
20:34:03 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/rif-bld/ 
20:34:07 <DanC> RIF Basic Logic Dialect
20:34:07 <DanC> W3C Working Draft 30 October 2007
20:34:12 <sandro> Sandro: So that's quoting in the common LP style, where you use function terms as a sort of pun for logic
20:34:14 <yosi_s> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-rif-bld-20071030/
20:34:54 <timbl> _________________________________________________________
20:35:38 <sandro> Sandro: the WG feels that document needs to be re-organized, and it's planned.
20:36:23 <timbl> RDF/t
20:36:31 <sandro> html tables thing?
20:36:41 <sandro> DanC: how about for next week?
20:36:46 <DanC> I seem to be available one week hence, 26 Nov
20:37:02 <sandro> regrets next week from Robert, Tim
20:37:03 <timbl> Regrets: TimBL, Robert
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20:37:34 <timbl> ______________________________________________________________
20:38:55 <DanC> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/207
20:39:00 <DanC> brainstorming, issue tracking, and problem reporting... with tabulator?
20:39:00 <DanC>     * view
20:39:00 <DanC>     * edit
20:39:00 <DanC> Submitted by connolly on Mon, 2007-11-05
20:42:40 <sandro> Topic:  More two minutes
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20:43:43 <sandro> Joe: Working on exposing data from MIT Warehouse.   Course information.   I've written a namespace to expore the moria student data.
20:43:57 <DanC> (mines of moira? allusion to what? not tolkien, is it?)
20:44:23 <sandro> Joe: exports lists as RDF.   Gives properties, like jabberID, openID, ... name isnt't given, because they don't usually expose that.   it's in 'finger' but otherwise locked.
20:44:48 <sandro> yes, Tolkien
20:44:56 <sandro> Joe; i was looking at D2R.
20:45:01 <sandro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moria_(Middle-earth)
20:45:24 <sandro> Tim: You could use dbview, but it doesn't do sparql.
20:45:47 <sandro> Joe: I'm sort of waiting to see what Sean does as a sparql parser.
20:45:53 <sandro> DanC: What about Yosi's?
20:46:01 <sandro> Yosi: I don't recommend he use it.
20:46:28 <sandro> Joe: I can commit it to dig repository, and you can run it in your own space
20:46:46 <sandro> Joe: MIT doesn't want to expose their Oracle database.
20:47:29 <sandro> Joe: A way to do it if you provide your warehouse id/pw.
20:48:10 <sandro> (Turns out it's actually MOIRA, not MORIA.  Not Tolkien, after all.)
20:48:26 <sandro> http://web.mit.edu/warehouse/metadata/fields/moira_student4.html
20:48:52 <sandro> Joe: The layer we're talking about is just a sparql front end for SQL.
20:49:41 <sandro> Sandro: So can just-any-student get access to the database?
20:49:48 <sandro> Joe: No, I had to get special permission.
20:50:20 <sandro> Tim: The public access is the higher priority.
20:51:03 <sandro> Joe: The warehouse has people using 20-ish  std queries, munged a bit.
20:51:40 <sandro> http://web.mit.edu/ist/warehouse/
20:51:54 <sandro> Joe: brio query....    not many folks use it.
20:52:54 <timbl> Danny:  Where woudl the auth happen?
20:53:19 <timbl> Joe:   Basic or digest, would allow you to list tables you have access to
20:53:53 <timbl> Joe:  They don't want any oracle generioc user/passwords released.
20:54:07 <timbl> They also don't wnt people typing in kerberos passwords.
20:54:26 <timbl> Note the oracle and kerb passwords are currenlty disjoin, but in a while be merged.
20:55:54 <timbl> D2R has a script you should use which generates a default mapping
20:55:57 <timbl> in N3.
20:56:05 <timbl> You then hack that to make te mapping better.
20:56:17 <timbl> But it only looks at tables  but not views.
20:56:23 <timbl> It doesn't se those.
20:59:53 <presbrey> New Advogato Features
20:59:53 <presbrey> FOAF updates: Trust rankings are now exported, making the data available to other users and websites. An external FOAF URI has been added, allowing users to link to an additional FOAF file.
21:00:23 <DanC> "FOAF updates: Trust rankings are now exported, making the data available to other users and websites. An external FOAF URI has been added, allowing users to link to an additional FOAF file." -- http://www.advogato.org/person/robogato/diary.html
21:01:27 <presbrey> http://www.advogato.org/person/presbrey/foaf.rdf
21:01:37 <presbrey> http://www.advogato.org/person/presbrey/foaf.rdf#me
21:02:05 <DanC> (pointer to online tabulator again, pls?)
21:02:11 <yosi_s> DanC, http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab
21:03:42 <timbl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/FoafSites
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21:06:00 <DanC> indeed. I see { joe is member of Master } . cool.
21:06:11 <DanC> <Zakim> -Danny
21:06:11 <DanC> <Zakim> -DanC
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21:06:57 <DanC> that was a pretty cool meeting; it's going to take some discipline to not play with all the cool toys we talked about.
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21:21:05 <oshani> http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/projects/tami/output1.n3
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21:50:03 <timbl> ": that was a pretty cool meeting;" -- Good :)
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21:54:50 <timbl> Hmmmm  .. trying output1.n3 cut down .. works with one of the  forumulae in it
21:56:23 <timbl> grrrr chris serbves as x-turtle
21:56:44 <timbl> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/amord/tms#Premise
21:56:49 <timbl> should be text/rdf+n3
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22:07:12 <timbl> It seems to be hanging downloading the owl  namespace dcoument
22:07:51 <timbl> Yes. weird.
22:24:02 <timbl> Ah ... it is the list in the final premise
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