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15:07:10 <danbri> hey diggies
15:07:18 <danbri> should i expect tabulator to work ok in ff3?
15:08:40 <timbl> no
15:08:45 <timbl> dunno why
15:10:34 <danbri> i tried extension, it wouldn't let me ... was wondering about the online version
15:11:13 <danbri> we're in #blogtalk fwiw
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15:43:16 <timbl> online version should
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19:01:52 <sandro_> hm.
19:03:21 <sandro_> sandro_ is now known as sandro
19:03:40 <sandro> So.
19:03:46 <sandro> You call this a meeting?
19:04:47 <sandro> Or maybe I don't know what time the meeting is supposed to be.
19:05:35 <amy> 2:30pm
19:05:50 <sandro> Huh.    
19:06:01 <sandro> annoying.
19:06:08 <sandro> but thanks, Amy.
19:06:23 <amy> did you get a mail that said 2pm?
19:06:50 <sandro> No, it's just been so long since the last meeting, or agenda, that I really didn't remember.
19:07:01 <amy> ah, ok
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19:33:15 <amy> Tim is still on a Director's call
19:33:22 <amy> oh, no he's not :)
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19:34:40 <RalphS> zakim, this is dig
19:34:40 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; that matches DIG_weekly()2:30PM
19:35:08 <Zakim> -MIT531
19:35:17 <Zakim> +MIT531
19:35:17 <Zakim> +DanC
19:36:08 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
19:36:09 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't yet know the conference code
19:36:32 <sandro> wtf?
19:36:38 <sandro> Zakim, this is dig
19:36:38 <Zakim> sandro, this was already DIG_weekly()2:30PM
19:36:39 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches DIG_weekly()2:30PM
19:36:48 <sandro> zakim, you're nut's
19:36:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're nut's', sandro
19:36:58 <sandro> zakim, you're nuts
19:36:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you're nuts', sandro
19:37:05 <sandro> zakim, what is the code?
19:37:06 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't yet know the conference code
19:37:17 <RalphS> zakim, mit531 has TimBL, Oshani, Robert, Lalana, Yosi, Ralph
19:37:18 <Zakim> +TimBL, Oshani, Robert, Lalana, Yosi, Ralph; got it
19:37:36 <yosi_lap> Zakim, remind me in 1000000000 minutes that life is short
19:37:36 <Zakim> ok, yosi_lap
19:37:40 <lkagal> sandro, its dig1
19:37:44 <timbl> -------------------------------------------------
19:37:47 <sandro> dig1 is restricted at this time.
19:37:51 <RalphS> Meeting: DIG "weekly"
19:37:54 <RalphS> Chair: TimBL
19:38:00 <timbl> agenda?
19:38:09 <timbl> Zakim?
19:38:17 <Zakim> +Sandro
19:38:32 <sandro> Hmmm.   Maybe MIT VOID DTMF problems.
19:39:21 <RalphS> TimBL: W3C Technical Architecture Group meeting
19:39:30 <sandro> s/VOID/VOIP
19:39:31 <RalphS> ... 2 connections now to Semantic Web
19:40:08 <RalphS> ... a subgroup/task force has split off to discuss formalizing ontologies for resources and URIs
19:40:26 <RalphS> ... the TAG has started to use N3 on whiteboards to talk about what it means
19:40:42 <DanC_> DanC_ (n=connolly@CPE-69-76-220-64.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #dig
19:40:54 <RalphS> ... David Booth has produced a set of rules describing @@
19:41:00 <DanC_> DanC_ is now known as DanC
19:41:17 <RalphS> ... connects to TAMI via records of what a user has accessed through HTTP
19:41:29 <DanC> (note that TimBL actually took a TAG action to align the tabulator ontology with the AWWSW/Booth ontology)
19:41:43 <RalphS> ... I offered to the TAG that I'd be prepared to change the Tabulator ontology to bring it closer to David's if the TAG likes it
19:42:19 <DanC> (the TAG is doing a _lot_ of semantic web stuff lately; I wonder if too much, given the relative importance of Hypertext to W3C; some members of the TAG definitely think too much.)
19:42:38 <RalphS> Oshani: added another pane to Tabulator
19:42:45 <timbl> agenda+ Lawer's pane demo?
19:42:48 <RalphS> ... "lawyers" pane
19:43:09 <timbl> agenda+   SXSW  travelocity
19:44:51 <RalphS> ... I also went to Google workshop of Women Engineers
19:45:14 <RalphS> ... met Larry and Sergey there
19:45:34 <RalphS> ... going to CRAW in Seattle
19:45:40 <DanC> q+ to note Chime is applying to the Case Western University PhD program
19:46:07 <RalphS> Robert: implemented a SOAP interface to IHOP
19:46:14 <RalphS> ... because Nature was interested in it
19:46:27 <RalphS> ... it was a lot of work that I hadn't planned to do
19:46:46 <RalphS> ... it provides a connector between IHOP and search
19:48:48 <RalphS> ... uses Axis
19:48:54 <RalphS> Oshani: why not Axis2?
19:49:19 <RalphS> Robert: 'cause I didn't know about Axis2 -- I found Axis first in my search
19:51:02 <sandro> long time.   no way to find out.  :-)(
19:51:03 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: DIG Weekly 3 March
19:52:26 <RalphS> Robert: I wrote a paper about exporting IHOP data
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19:52:54 <yosi_lap> Zakim: remind me in 5 minutes that there are 5 minutes until Oshani leaves
19:53:04 <yosi_lap> Zakim, remind me in 5 minutes that there are 5 minutes until Oshani leaves
19:53:05 <DanC> (I get confused about whether we're having a discussion or round-the-table reporting; tim, please do agenda+ if you have more than one short question)
19:53:05 <Zakim> ok, yosi_lap
19:53:42 <sandro> DanC, I get the feeling this is neither.   This a tell-Tim-something-interesting meeting.
19:53:56 <RalphS> Lalana: DanBri, EricP, and I are working on adding access control to SPARQL
19:54:00 <DanC> well, I wouldn't mind that if it were more clearly labelled as such
19:54:11 <RalphS> diglogger, pointer?
19:54:11 <RalphS> See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2008-03-03#T19-54-11
19:54:11 <sandro> yeah
19:54:41 <timbl> agenda+ Access control for SARQL
19:55:07 <RalphS> -> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2008-02-11#T19-34-49 Previous 2008-02-11
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19:55:31 <RalphS> Lalana: working on a policy panel for WWW2008
19:55:35 <DanC> WWW2008 policy panel... coordinates?
19:55:35 <RalphS> ... not sure which day
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19:56:06 <DanC> (why we need to what? the OWLED paper)
19:56:12 <RalphS> ... submitted a paper to OWLED trying to justify the need for role-value maps
19:56:27 <RalphS> ... working on Cybertrust proposal, IEEE Policy, and a couple of other workshops and conferenceds
19:56:40 <RalphS> Yosi: trying to write [thesis]
19:58:05 <Zakim> yosi_lap, you asked to be reminded at this time that there are 5 minutes until Oshani leaves
19:58:23 <oshani> I have to go now... my class starts in 2 mins
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19:58:58 <RalphS> Ralph: no appreciable DIG work, just some sysadmin work
19:59:26 <RalphS> DanC: Vancover/TAG last week
19:59:30 <DanC> http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/?sort=lastchange
20:00:01 <RalphS> ... made a playlist using iTunes, then had it spit out hAudio (microformats)
20:00:07 <DanC> http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/palmagent/
20:00:12 <RalphS> ... so added hAudio to palmagent project
20:00:25 <RalphS> ... someone sent me a pointer to something on hAudio by Tantek
20:00:41 <RalphS> ... for SXSW I wanted to get this connected to social networks
20:01:29 <RalphS> ... paper on economic model for the Web; it's mostly about search engines and what they optimize for
20:01:39 <RalphS> ... haven't decided whether to put my review in breadcrumbs
20:01:53 <RalphS> ... Danny asked that I look at something in TAMI
20:02:00 <RalphS> Lalana: Reciprocal Privacy
20:02:13 <RalphS> DanC: I wasn't able to get to the TAMI meeting
20:02:59 <DanC> on "An Economic Model of the Worldwide Web" - [ ] by Kouroupas, Koutsoupias, Papadimitriou, Sideri
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20:03:25 <RalphS> is this a published paper, Dan?
20:03:35 <RalphS> Sandro: working on publishing tools
20:03:42 <DanC> yes... I prolly have a pointer to a PDF version somewhere
20:03:51 <RalphS> ... OWL WG mulling about OWL-Full and OWL-DL again
20:04:08 <RalphS> ... trying to understand what a fragment of OWL-Full might look like
20:04:15 <RalphS> ... lots of technical complexities
20:04:20 <ericP> hi diggers
20:04:26 <DanC> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/kouroupas05economic.html
20:05:18 <RalphS> ... most of the WG is not interested in OWL-Full
20:05:30 <RalphS> ... would be nice to have more expertise to throw at it
20:06:22 <RalphS> zakim, next agendum
20:06:23 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Lawer's pane demo?" taken up [from timbl]
20:06:38 <RalphS> s/Lawer/Lawyer
20:06:44 <DanC> 10.4.11
20:07:02 <DanC> (maybe yosi should do this tech support later?)
20:07:43 <lkagal> http://mr-burns.w3.org/cgi-bin/server_cgi.py?logFile=http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/s9/variation1/log.n3&rulesFile=http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/s9/variation1/demo-policy.n3
20:07:47 <RalphS> Lalana: you have to have the TAMI extension installed
20:07:51 <RalphS> ... should work from svn
20:08:04 <RalphS> ... we attach descriptions to each rule
20:08:16 <RalphS> ... rule description is displayed at top and premise at bottom
20:08:56 <DanC> (this sounds cool; anybody have spare bandwidth to take a screenshot... or screencast?)
20:09:05 <RalphS> ('lawyer pane' icon is a balance)
20:09:29 <DanC> (anybody around here use VNC much?)
20:10:28 <DanC> timbl, can you command-4 and mail it to diggers?
20:10:54 <RalphS> Lalana: 'Facts' are the rule descriptions
20:11:10 <RalphS> ... 'Analysis' is the description of the last rule that fired
20:11:19 <DanC> ("it's in the log" is only helpful to those who have the tabulator extension installed.
20:11:20 <DanC> )
20:12:19 <DanC> q+
20:12:25 <RalphS> ... K is demoing this tomorrow
20:12:49 <DanC> ack danc
20:12:49 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Chime is applying to the Case Western University PhD program and to 
20:15:34 <DanC> DanC: a screencast would be cool; would that be stealing the project's thunder?
20:16:39 <DanC> "Chicago is the site of the 2008 AAAI and IAAI conferences, beginning July 13" -- http://www.aaai.org/home.html
20:18:11 <timbl> agenda?
20:19:36 <RalphS> -> https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/attachments/20080303/b536f485/attachment-0001.png Lawyer View screen shot
20:21:13 <timbl> Zakim, next agendum
20:21:13 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, timbl
20:21:19 <timbl> q?
20:21:36 <RalphS> zakim, next agendum
20:21:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "SXSW  travelocity" taken up [from timbl]
20:21:46 <timbl> Zakim, next agendum
20:21:46 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, timbl
20:21:49 <timbl> k
20:22:01 <RalphS> DanC: SXSW has grown from a music festival to a movie festival to Web stuff
20:22:11 <RalphS> ... Tantek Celic and microformats are very much present there
20:22:22 <lkagal> SXSW: http://sxsw.com/
20:22:25 <DanC> http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustinIIISessions
20:23:00 <RalphS> ... "barcamps" are just-in-time conferences
20:23:23 <RalphS> ... see "Practical Semantic Markup ChristopherStJohn'
20:23:40 <RalphS> ... someone from Travelocity is apparently attending
20:24:20 <RalphS> -> https://lists.csail.mit.edu/mailman/private/diggers/2008-March/001459.html "[Fwd: Re: RDFa/Semantic Web at SXSW/BarCampAustinIII]" [DanC 2008-03-03]
20:24:38 <RalphS> zakim, next agendum
20:24:38 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Access control for SARQL" taken up [from timbl]
20:24:49 <RalphS> Lalana: resource-level access control integrated into SPARQL
20:24:53 <RalphS> ... using named graphs
20:25:02 <DanC> (is anybody still working on tabulator map/calendar stuff?)
20:25:08 <RalphS> ... permissions on who can read & update named graphs, including the 'Permissions Graph'
20:25:23 <RalphS> ... join a query result with the PermissionsGraph to filter response
20:25:28 <DanC> agenda + tabulator and social networking
20:25:42 <RalphS> ... could block access to a query that uses an item outside the permissions graph
20:25:54 <RalphS> ... or could rewrite the query to return only the data to which the requester has access
20:26:07 <DanC> ("we" = ?)
20:26:21 <RalphS> ... in another proposal we're thinking of doing this with queries rather than named graphs, and do the same query rewriting
20:26:31 <DanC> (proposal to whom?)
20:26:31 <RalphS> TimBL: Joe is supposed to be working in this area too
20:26:48 <RalphS> Lalana: suggested that Joe use group-based permissions so he can use Tabulator to generate the policy
20:27:10 <RalphS> TimBL: test case is to make a promise that the data is only available to members of a specific group
20:27:16 <danbri> danbri has quit (Connection timed out)
20:27:22 <RalphS> ... then the server should refuse any future request to make the data public
20:28:46 <RalphS> Lalana: how is this different from having a static policy?
20:28:56 <RalphS> TimBL: suppose a group has a policy that its minutes are never public
20:29:00 <RalphS> ... this is an invariant
20:29:25 <RalphS> ... the group could be expanded or destroyed but the minutes never are publci
20:29:30 <RalphS> s/publci/public/
20:29:45 <RalphS> ... the access control can only be changed within the previously-specific constraints
20:30:25 <RalphS> ... can make changes to the access control policy as long as the data never becomes public
20:30:43 <RalphS> ... e.g. I could show you a photograph under the condition that you never show it to your Mum
20:30:51 <DanC> q+
20:30:52 <timbl> agenda?
20:31:09 <timbl> Zakim, we are doing agendum 3 now
20:31:09 <RalphS> DanC: who is involved in this work?
20:31:09 <Zakim> I don't understand 'we are doing agendum 3 now', timbl
20:31:13 <RalphS> Lalana: DanBri, EricP, and I
20:31:29 <RalphS> ... by 'proposal' I mean ideas we might write into a paper; i.e. ideas
20:31:58 <RalphS> ... Eric may implement this in Algae
20:32:18 <RalphS> ... DanBri thinks that Benji (?) might implement in his php engine
20:32:26 <timbl> Bengee
20:32:53 <timbl> Zakim,  next agendum
20:32:53 <RalphS> -> http://bnode.org/en-semweblog Benjamin Nowack block
20:32:54 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, timbl
20:32:58 <RalphS> s/Benji/Bengee/
20:32:59 <timbl> q?
20:33:07 <timbl> ack danc
20:33:13 <timbl> Zakim,  next agendum
20:33:14 <Zakim> agendum 4. "tabulator and social networking" taken up [from DanC]
20:33:22 <DanC> bengee does http://bnode.org/blog
20:33:23 <RalphS> s/block/blog
20:34:10 <RalphS> DanC: Tabulator and social networking seemed to click when TimBL talked about it recently
20:34:36 <RalphS> ... Kenny seems keen on this
20:35:52 <RalphS> ... I'd like to combine the Tabulator FOAF pane with access control so we could write arbitrary applications using Tabulator and the "big RDF store in the sky"
20:36:12 <RalphS> ... gets closer to a collaborative development system
20:36:31 <DanC> (use cases that come to mind for me are mostly around calendar sync; e.g. Hypertext Coordination Group aggregate calendar)
20:38:26 <RalphS> ... I'd like to be able to build interfaces with rules that describe the GUI state as a function of the graph state
20:40:41 <RalphS> DanC: I was brainstorming about an issues list using an outliner
20:41:15 <RalphS> ... when I'm in the middle of editing things, I don't want individual change notices sent
20:41:25 <RalphS> TimBL: sounds like off-line work
20:41:34 <RalphS> ... this introduces the possibility of clashes
20:41:44 <RalphS> Sandro: analogous to editors' drafts and Working Drafts
20:41:59 <RalphS> ... an editors' draft changes moment by moment
20:42:04 <RalphS> ... the working drafts are snapshots
20:42:18 <RalphS> ... could highlight certain snapshots as being appropriate for certain audiences
20:42:25 <RalphS> ... announce the snapshots
20:42:42 <RalphS> TimBL: connects to a notion Jerry has about 'hypotheses'
20:43:45 <RalphS> ... he's thinking about a system that would allow hypotheses to be turned off and on and to view the effect
20:44:07 <DanC> (it's like an overlay filesystem)
20:44:23 <RalphS> ... WG could generate diffs within hypotheses
20:44:40 <RalphS> Sandro: could you externalize a hypothesis as 'agent', 'author', or 'creator'?
20:45:08 <RalphS> ... e.g. I could trust a pseudo-person named 'TimBL-2'; were TimBL-2 represents a hypothesis
20:45:15 <RalphS> ... easier to think about it this way
20:45:38 <RalphS> ... I think folk are more accustomed to thinking about trust in people rather than trust in stories
20:47:10 <timbl> Ralph: I think people understand  that hey trust diff people with respct todiff things
20:47:44 <RalphS> Ralph: not clear to me that a notion of conditional trust is hard to comprehend
20:47:51 <RalphS> Sandro: we may be thinking about different use cases
20:49:12 <RalphS> TimBL: DanBri and I chatted about how to give people enough information to help them bootstrap themselves into FOAF networks given any ISP
20:49:51 <RalphS> DanC: use cases ... e.g. Facebook becomes a yearbook at the end of the day
20:50:30 <RalphS> TimBL: consider the CV that MIT requires researchers to submit
20:50:50 <RalphS> ... there's a very small set of relationships -- to publications, to organizations, ... -- that you have to describe
20:50:50 <DanC> (cv... interesting... I'm thinking about a job bank in the KC area)
20:51:01 <RalphS> ... we should be describing our publications in RDF and generate Bibtex
20:51:29 <RalphS> DanC: some of our stuff is in HTML that can be GRDDL'd to Bibtex
20:51:41 <RalphS> ... perhaps the DIG Publications page is marked up this way
20:51:45 <DanC> (http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2004/12/24-digpubs.html ... was that it?)
20:52:47 <RalphS> DanC: what interfaces do people use to create lists of publications?
20:52:51 <RalphS> TimBL: Tabulator
20:52:56 <RalphS> Lalana: emacs on a bibtex file
20:53:13 <DanC> one of my bibtex-related items... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/130 citing W3C specs from WWW conference papers
20:53:33 <RalphS> TimBL: would be nice to have a Tabulator pane for describing publications
20:53:50 <RalphS> Lalana: I think David Karger mentioned that his students are working on something like this
20:54:45 <RalphS> DanC: it would be interesting to get Citeseer to produce RDF
20:55:35 <DanC> another bibtex-related breadcrumb: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/158
20:57:04 <RalphS> [adjourned]
20:57:05 <Zakim> -Sandro
20:57:05 <timbl> timbl has quit ()
20:57:07 <RalphS> zakim, list attendees
20:57:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DanC, TimBL, Oshani, Robert, Lalana, Yosi, Ralph, Sandro
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20:58:23 <DanC> extensions file has: /Users/connolly/projects/tab/ext
20:58:43 <lkagal> lkagal has quit (Client Quit)
20:58:46 <DanC> pbjam:~/projects/tab/ext connolly$ ls
20:58:46 <DanC> chrome          chrome.manifest components      install.rdf
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20:59:12 <yosi_lap> cd ..
20:59:20 <DanC> ~/projects/tab connolly$ ls
20:59:21 <DanC> Makefile                index.html              tabulator@csail.mit.edu
20:59:21 <DanC> README 
20:59:21 <DanC> ...
20:59:49 <DanC> ~/projects/tab connolly$ /usr/local/bin/svn info
20:59:49 <DanC> Path: .
20:59:49 <DanC> URL: https://svn.csail.mit.edu/dig/2007/tab
20:59:49 <DanC> Repository UUID: ee5100c3-270b-0410-b6b6-ca9d7ce675ca
21:00:01 <DanC> Revision: 15716
21:03:19 <yosi_lap> TimBL-laptop:~/dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/tab yosi$ ls
21:03:20 <yosi_lap> Makefile                img                     release                 tutorial
21:03:20 <yosi_lap> README                  index.html              tabtutorial.html
21:03:20 <yosi_lap> ext                     maps                    tabulator@csail.mit.edu
21:04:12 <DanC> Fetching external item into 'ext/chrome/content/js'
21:04:12 <DanC> External at revision 16108.
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21:20:11 <Zakim> -DanC
21:20:14 <Zakim> -MIT531
21:20:16 <Zakim> DIG_weekly()2:30PM has ended
21:20:18 <Zakim> Attendees were DanC, TimBL, Oshani, Robert, Lalana, Yosi, Ralph, Sandro
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21:22:12 <RalphS> zakim, bye
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21:28:10 <sandro> When I click "install tabulator extension" it hangs with the bar about half-way done.
21:29:56 <sandro> yeah -- three times -- it hangs as 379 of 631 KB.
21:31:17 <sandro> on-line latest deve version does nothing when I press GO either.
21:33:14 <DanC> yosi and I gave up too; he couldn't find any reason why my set-up shouldn't work
21:33:24 <sandro> sigh.
21:34:15 <DanC> I read somewhere that 80% of PC users never install *any* software beyond what came with the machine. I suppose it's no wonder.
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