IRC log of dig on 2008-08-08

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18:03:06 [timbl]
Hi Oshani ... How is it going?
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18:03:31 [oshani]
Hi Lalana, not bad
18:03:39 [oshani]
however Nigel is away these days
18:04:03 [oshani]
but I am working on the Flickr CC licnese enforcement project
18:04:25 [oshani]
did you manage to go through the CC Licenses I've coded up in AIR?
18:06:22 [oshani]
oops.. sorry timbl :(
18:06:24 [timbl]
So was the q directed at me or her?
18:06:53 [oshani]
well, it was for her actually :)
18:07:06 [oshani]
anyway, I'd be happy to get your feedback on that!
18:07:14 [timbl]
Did you mail it to diggers?
18:07:23 [oshani]
I mailed it to TAMI
18:08:00 [oshani]
timbl, check http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2008/CreativeCommons/index.html
18:13:10 [timbl]
Don't worry, Oshani .. people always mistaking me for Lalana in the hallway ... I just get used to it
18:13:30 [oshani]
he he
18:14:31 [oshani]
timbl, I've also started writing up that short paper for the CSW about the TAMI app on Tabulator (a.k.a Justification UI), I could possibly send you a reasonable draft by Monday
18:14:42 [timbl]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/amord/air#label gives me a plain text file?
18:16:03 [timbl]
Monday-Wed I plan to be out, back Thursday or Friday or the following Monday depedning on eth weather
18:20:55 [timbl]
Ugh ... http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/amord/air#variable is an abomination
18:21:08 [oshani]
:)
18:21:18 [oshani]
you are going through the AIR spec now?
18:21:26 [oshani]
anyway, it's in ttl, not n3
18:21:45 [oshani]
maybe that's the reason it's giving a text file?
18:22:11 [oshani]
but Tabulator does handle ttl as well, isn't it?
18:22:20 [timbl]
ttl is n3
18:22:47 [oshani]
okay, but ttl has a bigger syntax isn't it?
18:23:32 [timbl]
You mean N3 has a bigger syntax.
18:23:52 [timbl]
Any document which is a TTL document is necessaily an N3 document.
18:24:57 [timbl]
Turtle is a rebranding of a subset of N3 by David Beckett
18:25:27 [oshani]
okay
18:25:35 [oshani]
but would this be valid N3? x a y; a z; .
18:25:48 [oshani]
notice the semi-colon before the period
18:26:07 [oshani]
Hugh Glaser at Soton says it's valid ttl but not valid n3
18:27:04 [timbl]
That file is application/x-turtle according to the server
18:27:15 [oshani]
yeah it is
18:27:50 [timbl]
Hugh has spotted a little difference between the grammars there? Interesting
18:28:36 [oshani]
and I think it's a practical way of writing RDF
18:28:50 [oshani]
you can go on adding a list for example
18:29:17 [timbl]
Your example works in cwm
18:29:45 [oshani]
okay
18:30:00 [timbl]
echo "<x> a <y>; a <z>;." | cwm
18:30:56 [timbl]
Yes, that feature of being able to add a trailing ; I added orignally in N3, so that one can generate a list of things from ascript.
18:31:30 [timbl]
Why does hugh think it is not valid N3?
18:32:09 [timbl]
But anyway, in they both produce RDF triples
18:32:15 [timbl]
The same RDF triples,
18:32:32 [timbl]
And http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/amord/air#variable is a nonsense predicate.
18:33:06 [timbl]
Chris' idea of using the syntax of RDF without the meaning is just not going to fly.
18:33:25 [timbl]
So you can't declare variables like that.
18:34:54 [timbl]
http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/trailing-semicolon.n3
18:35:11 [timbl]
Referred to in http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/syntax/detailed.tests
18:35:38 [timbl]
It is in the N3 tests.
18:37:13 [oshani]
okay, I'll pass them to him :)
18:37:54 [oshani]
and I didn't know abt the N3 tests either! - thanks for the pointers
18:38:17 [timbl]
There are various N3 tests ... Yosi has a big N3 test suite
18:39:15 [timbl]
producing thinks like http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/n3/test_results.html
18:40:12 [timbl]
See http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/test/n3/Makefile etc
18:40:17 [timbl]
Anyway ....
18:40:41 [oshani]
that's very nice.. I'll have a look
18:42:47 [timbl]
I worry about the thing you are doing now, of writing the CC licenses in AIR, that there is not very much logic in the CC licences.
18:44:02 [oshani]
well, IMO, the logic comes with the creative work usage.
18:44:20 [timbl]
How do you mean?
18:44:21 [oshani]
but that again is very closely tied to the transaction log
18:45:17 [oshani]
well, we are basically writing the policies by looking at the transaction log, and trying to match patterns that appear in that to assert something
18:47:31 [timbl]
{ E a UseEvent. C a Person. W a Work, licence L; creator C. R use W; creator U; giveAttribution C } => { :E air:compliant-with :CC_BY_Policy. }
18:48:11 [oshani]
yes, that's the idea
18:48:17 [timbl]
Transcoding of the AIR into N3
18:48:36 [oshani]
:)
18:48:41 [timbl]
Waht is R?
18:49:06 [oshani]
it's for any Resource
18:49:30 [oshani]
here it's used to indicate the blog where the photo is embedded in
18:49:32 [timbl]
Ok, so cc:use means soemthing like "contains material from".
18:50:29 [oshani]
yeah.. the domain is Resource and the range is the Work
18:50:44 [timbl]
The rule at the moment puts no constrainst on E connecting it to th eother variables, but it concludes that E is a valid event.
18:51:47 [oshani]
well, I thought of E as the all-encompassing event in which all the other variables are used in
18:51:47 [timbl]
It finds the creator of R, U, but doens't use it
18:51:58 [timbl]
Well,hen you have to say that
18:52:34 [timbl]
Like E a UseEvent; qutotedWord W; quoting work R.
18:52:40 [timbl]
s/Word/Work
18:52:50 [timbl]
for example
18:53:22 [oshani]
hmm.. yeah, guess I could do that.. I may need to extend the ontology a bit to do that I guess
18:53:30 [timbl]
At the moment your rule will conclude that all events are good, if it fires, as E can bind to anything.
18:54:03 [timbl]
Where are you imaging getting these log files from?
18:54:37 [oshani]
well, I guess that's the distributed logging problem we are trying to solve :)
18:54:48 [timbl]
Wouldn't it be more likely to see after the fact that R uses information from W by for example running a comparison software on them/
18:55:23 [timbl]
or do you want to ctach the person in the process os writing the essay an pasting something into it?
18:55:56 [oshani]
timbl, I agree with the event not being tied to other variables is a flaw - but in this case I have just one event in the log - so, it's logically correct
18:56:10 [timbl]
You could require that the person put the RDF acknowledgement in the metadta in their file, which would make it easy to check I guess.
18:56:21 [oshani]
what do you mean by a comparison software?
18:56:42 [timbl]
Oshani, the rule is a statement of what is true, not a program.
18:56:58 [oshani]
okay
18:57:09 [timbl]
(comparison software .. anti-plaugurarism software .. mus be lots out there)
18:57:52 [timbl]
Rules should be though of as statements of knowledge, which can be published for example, and combined with other stuff.
18:58:12 [oshani]
agreed
19:00:58 [timbl]
lkagal?
19:01:46 [lkagal]
Hi Tim & Oshani, I was just reading your messages and looking at the cc license rule
19:01:54 [oshani]
re your q on comparison software and catching people in action: well, I don't think what we have right now answers any of those problems: just that in CC you can use the creative work as long as it is subjected to some terms - which can be reasonably written down as rules in RDF (in N3 or AIR)
19:01:55 [timbl]
So what is the scenario? the person is editing using a modified editor program?
19:02:52 [oshani]
well, not really.. the person is using a photo without giving proper attribution to the original creator
19:03:14 [oshani]
all CC licenses by default has to give Attribution
19:03:25 [timbl]
The essence of it seems that is R uses W and W does not attribute to R then U is inviolation of the law.
19:03:36 [oshani]
yes exactly!
19:04:30 [timbl]
How are you going to measure R uses W? How are you going to measure W does not attribute to R ?
19:05:24 [oshani]
well, are you asking about the practical issues?
19:05:52 [oshani]
I was playing around with the Flickr API, and they actually have some metadata associated with the photos
19:06:27 [oshani]
metadata about CC license stuff
19:06:39 [timbl]
Well, yes, as I worry that the logic is very small and the practical issues will outweigh any value got from automating the logic.
19:07:12 [timbl]
Ok, yes, indeed, we know how we can measure { W licence cc:BY }.
19:07:23 [timbl]
We can parse teh metadata in eth photos etc.
19:08:02 [oshani]
R uses W, is a bit tricky -may in a closed world system we can infer that fact
19:08:25 [timbl]
If R is a web page and W is an embeded image, then we can see that R uses W by parsing R
19:08:56 [timbl]
or we can have adapted photo editor.
19:09:51 [oshani]
timbl, CC does have an ontology http://creativecommons.org/schema.rdf
19:10:33 [oshani]
what's the use of the adapted photo editor?
19:11:11 [lkagal]
Maybe it will be similar to Harvey's project ? Inform the user of the legal uses of the photo.
19:11:18 [lkagal]
it = adapted photo editor
19:11:39 [timbl]
A program whcih will watch the clipboard contents and track its provenance and then embedd in teh resulting photo "this includes a bit pasted from here" in RDF.
19:11:56 [timbl]
We were thinking of making e with the Media Standards Trust
19:12:24 [lkagal]
Oshani, what are prohibitions and permissions in the cc schema and shouldn't they be related to the policy
19:12:27 [timbl]
who are interested in ontologies for saying things like "undoctored or "zoomed and sharpened and cropped"
19:12:51 [timbl]
Similar to Harvey's project, yes.
19:13:09 [oshani]
timbl, do you know if this has taken off http://www.w3.org/TR/photo-rdf/ ?
19:13:14 [timbl]
Apparently Jim Hendleer has code for a photo editor -- a hacked PhotoShop or something
19:13:42 [lkagal]
timbl, have you seen the history/provenance feature of the semantic wiki being developed at rpi.
19:14:00 [timbl]
No, I haven't, lkagal.
19:14:30 [lkagal]
It does what you described but for the wiki - stores all changes made in RDF
19:15:18 [oshani]
lkagal, they are tied to the subclassed license terms
19:16:08 [timbl]
Funny I was just reading the EXIF ontology stuff again [2] in
19:16:08 [timbl]
[1] http://www.kanzaki.com/ns/exif
19:16:08 [timbl]
[2] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exif/ns
19:16:09 [timbl]
[3] http://www.kanzaki.com/ns/exif-tags.json
19:16:09 [timbl]
[4] http://www.kanzaki.com/test/exif2rdf
19:16:12 [lkagal]
Could you give me an example, oshani, I don't see the relationship.
19:17:57 [oshani]
lkagal, the "BY-NC-License" has the "prohibition" property "non-commercial" as well as "attribution"
19:20:13 [lkagal]
So, by-nc license prohibits non-commercial use but permits use with attribution.
19:20:20 [oshani]
yeah
19:22:30 [timbl]
Normally, it seems easier to make systems which state what is allowed.
19:22:42 [timbl]
In eth CC case it seems easier to say what i snot allowed.
19:23:23 [timbl]
In the CC case, it seems easier to say what is NOT allowed.
19:23:46 [oshani]
you mean in expressing in AIR?
19:24:05 [timbl]
How can you prove a use is non-commercial? you can only objet if you find that someone has some commercial connection.
19:24:51 [timbl]
I am not worried about the experssive power of the language, I am worried about ho the system we are building connects to the real world.
19:25:05 [timbl]
What sensors and actuators does it have?
19:25:31 [timbl]
it could for example detect ads in a page, and declare the page "commercial" if it contains ads.
19:25:38 [lkagal]
Actually in cc, you need to specify both what is allowed and what is not allowed. See aboce desc of by-nc license
19:25:40 [timbl]
that is a commerciality detector.
19:26:19 [timbl]
i can't make an uncommerciality detector
19:26:40 [timbl]
I can make a non-attribution detector.
19:26:44 [oshani]
lkagal, your specifc example: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
19:26:48 [timbl]
As I can make an attribution detector
19:27:23 [timbl]
For example I can search for a link to the requested site in the work, and if there is none conclude tahh the attribution has not been made.
19:27:45 [oshani]
it's more like what is allowed under some conditions
19:27:56 [lkagal]
Maybe we can have an "uncommerciality detector" using negation by failure. If you can't prove that it is commercial then its probably uncommercial
19:29:09 [timbl]
Weak, but might work in practice, I guess. Though there are many ways a site can be commercial.
19:29:26 [timbl]
It can promote a product on it in an image ad.
19:29:59 [timbl]
So to prove it was not commercial you woul dhave to prove the image was not an ad.
19:30:06 [timbl]
Or a product.
19:31:04 [oshani]
timbl, containing ads in the page doesn't really mean the use of the photo I embed in my blog is for a commercial use- I mean I use Google ads on my blog, but does that mean the photo is used for a commercial purpose?
19:31:36 [lkagal]
Tim, I think a system like this could be used in an image processing env. The license is somehow part of the image and if you try to embed it on a page or open it in a photo editor, certain warnings will appear about the license. The editor could enforce the license by preventing you from saving changes if license does not permit it, for example.
19:32:49 [oshani]
lkagal, do you know of any editor which does that?
19:33:01 [timbl]
Ok, so this is the adapted editor assumption. Yes, that would work.
19:33:03 [lkagal]
No - just a possible scenario :)
19:33:45 [timbl]
lalana, if you scroll up, you see we were discussing things like that .. Jim Hendler has some open source for one, he says.
19:33:52 [oshani]
okay.. I used 0xEF an EXIF editor - I could see the license data, but can modify without any prob
19:34:10 [timbl]
i'm not sure what the destnation of thiese ruels is to be .. some sort of demo?
19:35:01 [oshani]
well, a hypothetical demo is very simple, but I would really like to work on making these stuff enforceable in the real world
19:35:06 [timbl]
JIm's syudenst found an editor which had undo, so it kept a trail of changes, and they encoded taht in the file when they output it, so you could se the proveneance.
19:36:24 [timbl]
It is interesting I think to make a web crawler whcih looks for the occurrnces of thembedding of an image in a web page and checks the image licence and wheth erthere is attribution.
19:36:35 [timbl]
I think it may be able to find some but ot all violations
19:37:49 [lkagal]
Doesn't yahoo or google already let you search for images with certain cc licenses.
19:37:52 [timbl]
Of, shall I ask Yosi to fix the AIR reasoner so it uses proper variables?
19:38:01 [timbl]
search - yes
19:38:07 [oshani]
lkagal, yes
19:38:31 [lkagal]
afaik, the air reasoner already supports both kinds of variables - the amord style and the cwm style
19:38:54 [oshani]
have we tested it yet though?
19:38:58 [timbl]
Ok, so Oshani, you should use the cwm style.
19:39:07 [oshani]
will do :)
19:39:23 [oshani]
I'll rewrite the AIR rules in N3 and test it
19:39:31 [timbl]
Thank you!
19:40:25 [lkagal]
Also, oshani the variable E doesn't seem to be connected to the license or the work.
19:40:39 [oshani]
yeah, Tim already told me about that
19:40:59 [oshani]
will fix that - I thought it was okay as long as there is no other event in the log
19:41:19 [oshani]
I mean it's logically OK, isn't it?
19:41:43 [timbl]
Without any constraint on E? No.
19:41:50 [lkagal]
I
19:41:59 [lkagal]
I'm not sure what you mean by "logically"
19:42:39 [timbl]
It is like saying "If there is any person, and a tree falls in the forest, then the person is a woodman".
19:42:45 [lkagal]
The rule finds E in violation without knowing why
19:42:54 [lkagal]
He he
19:43:28 [oshani]
well, true true :)
19:43:39 [oshani]
it will be fixed!
19:44:12 [lkagal]
Thanks Oshani. Another thing - if there was an example of a license in rdf, that would be great.
19:44:39 [oshani]
well, you can generate licenses in RDFa
19:44:59 [oshani]
they have a nice web app at http://creativecommons.org/license/
19:47:25 [lkagal]
Oshani, just saw your comment about the exif editor. We would have to modify the editor to disallow modifications to the license and enforce it, if possible.
19:48:14 [oshani]
enforce, how?
19:50:03 [timbl]
Needs <> around the sdp2008 URI
19:50:24 [timbl]
You didn't test it in cwm, did you ;-)
19:50:33 [oshani]
nope..
19:50:44 [timbl]
And probably triplequotes around the string with the hyena in
19:51:10 [oshani]
it's actually a dingo :)
19:51:15 [timbl]
And you might have to backslash escape the hyena
19:51:34 [timbl]
Oh, dingo? Fine then. Dingos aren't string terminators
19:51:55 [oshani]
so the whole thing is actually within the double-quotes. we thought it is correct syntax
19:52:03 [timbl]
How many times must I tell you to test your Tshirts in cwm?
19:52:09 [oshani]
he he
19:53:02 [timbl]
double quotes in N3 can't have multipel liens unless you triple them up like "@@ (dingo)
19:53:14 [timbl]
Oxford Internet Institute DSDP'08"""
19:53:18 [oshani]
ah okay
19:53:27 [timbl]
s/"@@/"""@@
19:53:40 [timbl]
Like python
19:55:07 [timbl]
Nice shirt anyway.
19:55:33 [oshani]
thanks!
19:56:39 [timbl]
google n3 t-shirt reveals "N3 T-Shirt Black S Code: CSP24122 Series: N3 (Ninety-Nine Nights)"
19:57:50 [oshani]
Notation3 is probably better than Ninety-Nine Nights :)
19:58:13 [timbl]
:)
19:58:25 [timbl]
Well .. how about this shirt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8H7RUG6zGM
19:58:54 [oshani]
:D
19:59:19 [timbl]
I don't know where the N3 comes in but if it is really sound activates that is neat.
19:59:27 [lkagal]
oshani, the creative commons app does not seem the use the ontology. There is no notion of permission or prohibition or requirement. The name of the license seems to imply the perms, etc.
19:59:56 [oshani]
lkagal, that's what I've done in the extended ontology
20:00:10 [oshani]
IMO, their schema is a bit broken
20:00:12 [lkagal]
But there is no example of that
20:00:31 [lkagal]
What I mean there is no instance of their ontology
20:01:42 [oshani]
um, http://creativecommons.org/schema.rdf ?
20:02:39 [lkagal]
No, is there an example of something that is a Permission or a Prohibition or a Requirement.
20:03:11 [lkagal]
It looks like the ontology is just there as window dressing... and the cc licenses are basically only names.
20:04:30 [oshani]
yes, the RDFa only gives:
20:04:31 [oshani]
<a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/us/">
20:04:59 [oshani]
which doesn't say anything about the type
20:07:19 [oshani]
timbl, there's a cafepress shop that we've setup if you'd like to buy the N3 T-shirt : http://www.cafepress.com/OIISDP2008
20:09:55 [oshani]
timbl, lkagal thanks for the feedback on the Creative Commons license scenarios. I'll write up the rules in N3 and test them as a next step.
20:11:06 [timbl]
You could even with cwm try using the builtins to test it , can do things klike see whether a given file contains a given thing etc etc
20:11:15 [timbl]
Ok, have a good wekebnd.
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20:16:56 [lkagal]
Bye oshani, have a good weekend.
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