IRC log of dig on 2008-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

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19:31:32 [oshani]
Hi Ilaria
19:32:08 [Ilaria]
hello oshani
19:32:15 [oshani]
we might need to cut a Tabulator release soon, so there are 2 things we need to do wrt to your Table Pane
19:32:47 [Ilaria]
when is soon?
19:32:51 [oshani]
1. Have an icon - Tim suggested that we take the outline icon and use it there. Do you have a better suggestion?
19:33:29 [Ilaria]
sure that I can do it today, I just have to make one and change it as tmb suggested
19:33:41 [oshani]
cool
19:33:41 [Ilaria]
no no that is fine
19:33:50 [Ilaria]
what else?
19:34:16 [oshani]
2. Since you are sorta browsing a document, and Tabulator is designed to browse 'things' would you like to tweak it a bit so that we will only see it when you are browsing documents and not "things"?
19:35:01 [oshani]
3. And move the code inside the 'panes' folder (for consistency)
19:35:12 [Ilaria]
I am not sure what you mean in 2 give me an example please
19:35:31 [Ilaria]
3 is fine, you suggested it yesterday.
19:36:03 [timbl_]
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19:36:29 [oshani]
well, the idea is we shouldn't see the table pane appearing when you are browsing something like http://example.com/foaf.rdf#i
19:36:38 [oshani]
since that it a "thing"
19:36:56 [oshani]
anyways, this could wait a bit IMO, and we could talk a bit more on this
19:37:24 [Ilaria]
sure I understand!!!
19:37:50 [Ilaria]
I am going to do 1, 2 and possibly 3.
19:37:55 [danbri]
I have a quick social pane comment: some of the UI is a little closed-world
19:37:56 [danbri]
eg. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2008/11/foaf-draft.png
19:37:57 [oshani]
great
19:38:13 [danbri]
'You and xyz do not know each other' is a very absolute statement
19:38:47 [danbri]
sprawling ramble on this theme here - http://danbri.org/words/2007/09/13/194#
19:39:11 [danbri]
good if 'you have no friends' -style UI can be avoided
19:39:25 [danbri]
tricky thing is --- what to write instead?
19:39:52 [danbri]
something like 'no connection known (in current db)' is hardly catchy
19:40:36 [Ilaria]
Danbri: can't you leave it blank?
19:40:41 [oshani]
danbri, so you suggest taking it out completely? IMO, I think listing common ppl from the 2 foaf files could be a tad useful
19:41:13 [danbri]
Probably better to not say anything than to say something that's frequently going to be false
19:41:40 [danbri]
but yes, linking common people (or later, connection paths) is great
19:41:46 [danbri]
especially if you do a bit of identity reasoning
19:41:53 [Ilaria]
you only say it when it is true, like if you have friend in common as this is really useful
19:42:58 [danbri]
yeah
19:43:29 [danbri]
btw Google Social Graph API now has documentation of the 'otherme' method, http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/docs/otherme.html
19:43:33 [danbri]
could be useful
19:43:46 [danbri]
except there are still quirks in the query results; it thinks libby miller == Jim Ley
19:49:54 [timbl]
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19:59:48 [timbl_]
danbri, maybe "found no common friends"
19:59:48 [timbl_]
?
20:00:41 [danbri]
maybe 'no link found' for the case of whether the tabulator's user is known to know the person being displayed
20:00:48 [timbl_]
In fact it turs out that when you load all the web pages you find a lot more
20:01:02 [danbri]
but talk about find/found is good i think, as it makes clear the lossy/partial aspect, without being explicit about exactly which data graphs are being consulted
20:01:09 [timbl_]
The pane should load all the friends foaf pages i guess
20:01:24 [danbri]
i do find tabulator a bit confusing to use on that aspect btw., ... never am sure quite which data it's drawing on
20:01:44 [danbri]
though i know i can see the source list, it's just a very different model to normal web navigation, where stuff gets forgotten between pages
20:02:18 [timbl_]
Well, let me know how you would like that shown -- wjat data it is drawing on
20:02:28 [timbl_]
diff model, yes
20:02:36 [timbl_]
sem web vs web
20:03:07 [timbl_]
The green dots represent data pulled in
20:04:10 [oshani]
timbl_, speaking of green dots, why are there that many now? Is it a bug?
20:04:24 [oshani]
s/that/so
20:04:59 [oshani]
when I open a pane, it increase by 1
20:06:23 [kennyluck]
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20:06:52 [danbri]
the closest familiar UI designs I can think of: Photoshop layers; Google Earth data layers; iCalendar calendar selections
20:07:03 [timbl_]
Well, it was a bug before that one green dot was used associated with an arbitrary one of the URIs identifyig a thing.
20:07:25 [timbl_]
open a pane increas what by one?
20:07:42 [oshani]
the number of green dots
20:07:56 [timbl_]
Exaplain?
20:09:07 [oshani]
so, by default "Maker" and "Primary Topic" have 2 dots
20:09:24 [timbl_]
in what?
20:09:25 [oshani]
when I open the pane associtated with either, close it and open again
20:09:36 [oshani]
the number becomes 3 and so on
20:09:50 [oshani]
in http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card for example
20:09:58 [timbl_]
Some weirdness that it is loading the same triples from >1 place maybe
20:11:39 [timbl_]
Primary topic I have each have one green dot
20:12:03 [oshani]
hmm... well, I have the latest svn update
20:12:13 [oshani]
maybe there's some uncommitted code?
20:13:05 [timbl_]
No
20:13:16 [oshani]
strange
20:14:00 [kennyluck]
This sometimes happens...I agree with tim, might be a problem related to loading the same triples from > 1 place.
20:14:33 [oshani]
timbl_, also, if I click on one of acquaintances the outliner doesn't show their FOAF stuff
20:14:39 [timbl_]
If the first file loads and has a see also then that will cause a new green dot
20:14:51 [timbl_]
or rather a owl:samAs
20:18:37 [timbl_]
So for example I open up "Tim Berners-Lee's FOAF file" and close it up and get only one green ball still
20:19:30 [oshani]
how about "Maker" and "Primary Topic"?
20:20:28 [danbri]
aside - if you have UI-driven requirements for what you think people should include in their foaf file, drop it into a wiki somewhere
20:21:48 [kennyluck]
timbl, you have to make sure that the UI filters out duplicated things.
20:22:07 [kennyluck]
The current store maintains every triple fetched.
20:22:18 [kennyluck]
This might be a good thing for tracking provenance.
20:22:37 [oshani]
yeap.. I seem to be getting so many duplicates in the list of acquaintances
20:22:39 [kennyluck]
But you have to take care of it in UI.
20:23:29 [kennyluck]
deal with it.
20:25:07 [kennyluck]
By the way, the store might store multiple copy of the same triple from THE SAME DOCUMENT.
20:25:20 [kennyluck]
This might be good for several reasons.
20:25:26 [oshani]
danbri, "include in their foaf file" or "how they want it to be displayed"?
20:25:42 [kennyluck]
1. Performace, removing duplicates is taking time
20:26:01 [kennyluck]
2. Different interpretations of a document.
20:26:02 [danbri]
included in their foaf, or in exports from social sites etc
20:26:19 [kennyluck]
By 2, I meant the following situation.
20:26:19 [oshani]
oh okay
20:26:53 [kennyluck]
If you have an RDF document. But maybe decorate it with GRDDL (I know this is not likely to happen)
20:27:04 [kennyluck]
Then you have two interpretations.
20:27:33 [kennyluck]
They might contain the same triple.
20:28:06 [kennyluck]
I am not sure in cwm, how does log:semantics deals with this kind of thing.
20:28:23 [kennyluck]
As far as I know, cwm does not accept RDFa or GRDDL or the like.
20:28:59 [timbl_]
No... it could .. would be a good addition
20:29:52 [timbl_]
oshani, "Maker"?
20:30:27 [timbl_]
you mean the "Made" column?
20:30:27 [oshani]
yes one of the properties in "Tim Berners-Lee's FOAF file"
20:30:48 [oshani]
no I meant "Maker" - when you open up "Tim Berners-Lee's FOAF file"
20:30:48 [timbl_]
When you start with my FOAF file, what URI do you use?
20:31:29 [timbl_]
Maybe you are adding a .rdf
20:31:40 [timbl_]
and then you end up with referenecs to without h e.rdf
20:31:47 [timbl_]
and so everything gets duplicated
20:32:41 [oshani]
I am using http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i
20:34:12 [oshani]
and I saw the 3 green dots for "Maker" and "Primary Topic" in your FOAF file (without #i)
20:37:25 [danbri]
will DIG people (any of you? all of you? :) be submitting a position paper to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/ ?
20:37:35 [danbri]
i think it's worthh sending something even if you can't attend
20:38:53 [oshani]
the deadline is 2 days away :)
20:46:12 [danbri]
that's good right?
20:46:23 [danbri]
a page of A4 with no references is fine. W3C isn't particularly scholarly ;)
20:50:04 [kennyluck]
Should we have the position "decentralized social networking rocks!"?
20:50:54 [oshani]
:)
20:51:56 [kennyluck]
"Get lost, evil companies." "Donation, Contribution, World Peace!!"
20:51:59 [danbri]
if you find time it would be great
20:52:10 [danbri]
try to be nice about all the non-semweb stuff going on elsewhere
20:52:11 [danbri]
openid etc
20:52:22 [danbri]
not that you wouldn't be :)
20:55:13 [timbl_]
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20:56:13 [tedtkang]
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20:57:00 [danbri]
tkang, are you around tommorrow?
20:58:06 [tkang]
yah
20:58:24 [tkang]
what time is good for you?
20:59:03 [danbri]
early-mid afternoon here
20:59:08 [danbri]
sorry missed you today
20:59:19 [tkang]
its no problem
20:59:20 [danbri]
but i should be online most of the (euro)day anyways
20:59:44 [tkang]
okay, i'll try to be on tomorrow and i'll just ping you when you come on
21:01:06 [danbri]
cool
21:01:10 [danbri]
talk to you then
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22:08:00 [timbl]
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22:18:44 [timbl]
Deadline for whole papers?
22:19:24 [timbl]
kennyluck, yes we should!
22:19:34 [timbl]
"decentralized social networking rocks!"?
22:21:02 [timbl]
But not "Get lost, evil companies." but "we apprecite teh need fro bo worlds of commercial and free software, and we are happy to announce Evil Compnies have just sponsored the DISN progren to the tune of $2M a year for th next 6 years" :)
22:21:13 [timbl]
msn - exctly
22:21:33 [timbl]
Ooops boarding
22:21:40 [timbl]
in fact itis m-sn
22:21:55 [kennyluck]
Well, that's "Donation".
22:22:03 [timbl]
Yes ectaly
22:22:10 [kennyluck]
If "Donation" were decentralized, we don't need evil companies.
22:22:18 [timbl]
The long tail.
22:22:39 [timbl]
Yes, the Web Foundation will ahve some kid of long tail donation system
22:23:28 [timbl]
Not clear from teh ititle how much of the m- mobile- there is i it
22:23:33 [timbl]
"the Future of Social Networking" has no m-
22:23:59 [oshani]
may be they think future is "going mobile" :)
22:24:20 [oshani]
s/future/the future
22:24:21 [kennyluck]
I don't agree with this, as I am still using an old-fashioned cell phone.
22:24:33 [timbl]
Well, for many people it is, but dioes that mean we would need a tbaulator mobile -- or maybe a tabulator 30" screen will be OK
22:25:11 [kennyluck]
Ah-hah that's why We needed pictures in SVG, you mentioned that.
22:25:32 [timbl]
SVG is an interestingh way to do UI
22:25:40 [timbl]
I have to go and board now
22:25:49 [timbl]
KUTGW everyone
22:25:58 [oshani]
have a nice flight tim
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