IRC log of dig on 2009-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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01:12:43 [jambo]
presbrey, authz seems to use the defaults even if a rule exists for a specific file in a directory
01:15:44 [jambo]
i think i'm just going to write an extra SPARQL query that checks if ?v1 :accessTo req_uri is empty or not
01:21:11 [kennyluck]
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01:21:39 [oshani]
hey!
01:21:52 [oshani]
I have a diagram I wanna show ya
01:21:54 [kennyluck]
Let me check my email first
01:21:58 [kennyluck]
Yay
01:22:03 [oshani]
didn't send any mail
01:22:10 [oshani]
but gimme like 5 mins to finish this
01:22:23 [kennyluck]
OK, I was to check email anyway
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01:53:04 [kennyluck]
Hmm... my plan on the use case is as follows:
01:53:49 [kennyluck]
For the use cases, I would prefer those that I know how to implement, so I would like to have two use cases in this section
01:56:33 [oshani]
what pdf file?
01:56:49 [kennyluck]
the one I had
01:57:06 [kennyluck]
just to identify the number of this section
01:57:12 [kennyluck]
3. Use Cases
01:57:32 [kennyluck]
3.1 maintainance of the data web
01:58:37 [kennyluck]
3.1.1 updating new information - for which I would like to explain the most important rule there, pointer the detailed CV case in other section
01:59:19 [kennyluck]
3.1.2 deleting old information - this I have a new idea, explained later
02:00:32 [kennyluck]
3.2 valuing information - talk about the idea of using evidences to value information, outline the contraversial stuff, but just a little bit
02:01:09 [kennyluck]
So it is reduced to only two use cases, which are more concrete I guess.
02:01:42 [kennyluck]
For 3.1.2, I just want to write a little bit and put a pointer there two the future work.
02:01:55 [kennyluck]
The future work idea is as follows:
02:03:04 [kennyluck]
In one sentence, we can treat the number of proofs for a triple to be the reference count of a triple.
02:03:20 [kennyluck]
And then we can do web-scaled garbage collection
02:04:10 [kennyluck]
example: { Kenny member DIG } => {some access control right}
02:04:33 [kennyluck]
{Kenny member CSAIL} => {same access control right}
02:04:49 [kennyluck]
So the reference count of this access right is 2
02:05:29 [kennyluck]
If both {Kenny member DIG} and {Kenny member CSAIL} are removed, we can garbage collect {some access control right}
02:06:39 [kennyluck]
I feel like this might be related to the propagator work, I wonder Pipian or timbl has seen similar approach or not.
02:07:26 [kennyluck]
s/two/to/
02:10:51 [oshani]
kennyluck, here's the diagram I constructed
02:10:51 [oshani]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/Papers/ISWC/lod-computations/images/scenario.png
02:11:02 [kennyluck]
does anyone have a pointer to the propagator Ian presented?
02:11:15 [oshani]
You mean the slides?
02:11:26 [oshani]
he sent it with the mail
02:11:30 [oshani]
oh no
02:11:36 [oshani]
well, there weren't any slides
02:11:38 [kennyluck]
Yep, slides
02:11:41 [kennyluck]
Oh...
02:11:42 [oshani]
it was mainly discussion
02:11:50 [oshani]
about scenario 0
02:11:55 [oshani]
for Propagator
02:12:01 [kennyluck]
OK, but the way, the diagram is very clear, nice!
02:12:30 [oshani]
need a cleaned up screenshot of the Google Reader kennyluck
02:12:41 [oshani]
please give me one, so I can update it
02:12:54 [kennyluck]
But this is quite small, people would not noticed that...
02:13:20 [oshani]
well, it would be nice to have it cleaned up, while we can
02:13:26 [oshani]
also, any other comments re: flow, and the labels?
02:13:43 [kennyluck]
No, they are good.
02:14:33 [kennyluck]
I guess I'll still try to clean up the future work section and the use case. Or shouldn't I?
02:14:42 [oshani]
sure go ahead
02:15:00 [kennyluck]
yay~ you committed the change
02:15:07 [oshani]
yes I did
02:15:16 [oshani]
BTW, how can I get to the #2 in the diagram?
02:15:23 [oshani]
can you give me the URI kennyluck
02:16:21 [kennyluck]
oshani, http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/kennyluck#8E_8qL
02:16:33 [oshani]
thanks
02:16:43 [kennyluck]
But for technical reasons, you have to load http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/kennyluck#I first
02:18:41 [oshani]
that must be why I didn't see the CV stuff
02:18:47 [oshani]
was just gonna ask you
02:18:51 [oshani]
why is that?
02:20:42 [kennyluck]
sorry, but http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/rss/Kenny_TODO
02:20:49 [kennyluck]
you have to load http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/rss/Kenny_TODO first
02:21:10 [kennyluck]
The reason is a purely technical one.
02:21:30 [oshani]
kb has to know about all the triples before hand?
02:21:54 [kennyluck]
Yes, so the problem is as follows
02:22:14 [kennyluck]
The proof of this TODO thing is in http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/rss/Kenny_TODO
02:22:43 [kennyluck]
yet the generated URI for the TODO is http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/kennyluck#8E_8qL
02:23:14 [kennyluck]
it should have been http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/rss/Kenny_TODO#8E_8qL
02:23:33 [kennyluck]
By since I spent only a little time on the server side, it can't do this
02:24:34 [oshani]
okay, so it's a bug in your code? (if I understand you right)
02:24:57 [kennyluck]
Yes. Lacking enough implementation.
02:25:11 [oshani]
anyway kennyluck, I am not going to modify the paper now.. since you are working on it
02:25:20 [oshani]
lemme know when you are finished with your edits
02:25:35 [kennyluck]
But you are supposed to go to sleep!
02:25:57 [oshani]
I'll be up for another 3 hours or so :)
02:26:31 [kennyluck]
It takes time, I guess I am only able to give you tomorrow(yours)
02:27:04 [oshani]
hmm okay then.. will check back tomorrow morning
02:28:20 [kennyluck]
oshani, in the mean time, can you fix the links, etc. for me?
02:28:32 [oshani]
what links?
02:28:50 [kennyluck]
the \ref{} s
02:29:38 [kennyluck]
also re: #@@oshani, can you make the above line bold face?
02:29:49 [oshani]
yeah I noticed those
02:30:04 [kennyluck]
do you happen to how how to do this?
02:30:10 [oshani]
well, I prefer to start on a clean file to avoid conflicts -- so will do those tomorrow when you are done with editing
02:30:30 [kennyluck]
I have little experience on LaTex
02:30:36 [oshani]
\textbf{words to be in bold}
02:30:47 [kennyluck]
Oh, OK.
02:31:13 [kennyluck]
I can try, I just don't have a compiler
02:32:19 [kennyluck]
I don't see your new diagram?
02:32:51 [kennyluck]
oshani
02:33:13 [oshani]
didn't add it yet
02:33:51 [kennyluck]
what about the words describing the scenario?
02:34:47 [oshani]
Do you see "Nested Proofs @@ Explain Kenny’s CV example with the BIG diagram "
02:34:54 [oshani]
that's where it was supposed to go
02:35:03 [oshani]
needs some restructuring
02:36:09 [kennyluck]
Ah, cool.
02:36:14 [kennyluck]
Found it
02:55:47 [kennyluck]
oshani, I am going to take some rest in this hour, you are free to make any changes.
02:57:38 [oshani]
kennyluck, did you commit your changes?
02:57:51 [kennyluck]
Not making any changes yet.
02:57:58 [oshani]
okay
02:58:15 [kennyluck]
I guess I can work when you are asleep
02:58:22 [oshani]
:)
02:58:39 [kennyluck]
I mean, commiting changes during this period
03:49:56 [oshani]
kennyluck, what's this supposed to mean: \ref{the Venn diagram for RDF formats}.?
03:50:41 [kennyluck]
Tim has a SVG picture for the expressive power of different RDF formats.
03:50:54 [oshani]
link?
03:50:59 [kennyluck]
looking for it
03:54:07 [kennyluck]
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3.html
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13:59:54 [mhausenblas]
timbl, oshani, presbrey - I have now totally restructured the paper. focus on Tabulator, etc. - please hg pull
14:00:14 [mhausenblas]
(for timbl - http://bitbucket.org/cygri/cygri/src/tip/ISWC09/rw-wod.pdf ;)
14:01:02 [mhausenblas]
the HTTP:WWW = SPARQL(U):GGG stuff is not in yet. I thought in the discussion section. others?
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16:32:12 [mhausenblas]
oshani?
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16:34:04 [mhausenblas]
Oana has completed her stuff, we'd just need the user handle on the RDForm in Tabulator (so that we can assign events to people in the RDF store and then allow people to auth against the Google API)
16:35:35 [oshani]
mhausenblas, what do you mean by the "user handle"?
16:35:48 [mhausenblas]
hehe. about to utter this ;)
16:35:55 [mhausenblas]
how about the following: user provides her WebID (we're assuming a FOAF profile behind it, right?)
16:36:42 [oshani]
um, well right now it's just ics data converted to RDF - no FOAF, but can include
16:36:43 [mhausenblas]
one can look up and either let user choose according mbox of auth against Google API or simply try it
16:37:00 [mhausenblas]
ah, well. what I meant is:
16:37:14 [mhausenblas]
we'd need an additional field on the RDForm pane, right?
16:37:29 [mhausenblas]
best would be to provide the Web ID
16:37:38 [mhausenblas]
which is universal solution
16:38:00 [mhausenblas]
rather than directly providing the email address used for logging into Google
16:38:19 [mhausenblas]
once we have this we may be able to short-cut or wrap the Google auth stuff
16:38:40 [mhausenblas]
the user experience would stay the same - you always provide your WebID
16:38:42 [mhausenblas]
see?
16:39:14 [mhausenblas]
(but for now, as we can't do proper FOAF+SSL and WAC with the current setup we'd need to go that extra mile)
16:39:20 [mhausenblas]
what dya think?
16:40:45 [oshani]
so are you suggesting that Tabulator should associate the webID of a person with the mbox of the person who owns UID of the calendar event?
16:41:16 [mhausenblas]
well, yes, at least ATM - do you see a better solution?
16:41:32 [oshani]
Oana's RDForm only takes in the UID, and when it's updated the server handles the auth part
16:41:42 [mhausenblas]
dunno, but I guess we want people to try out the stuff themselves, no?
16:41:50 [oshani]
yes true
16:41:58 [mhausenblas]
ahm. well, but one has to login, right?
16:42:23 [oshani]
I thought that;s handled by Oana's updateCalendar code
16:42:33 [oshani]
she asked me to update the store only
16:43:00 [mhausenblas]
right, but now there is the problem how to assoiciate events with people/calendars, right?
16:43:13 [mhausenblas]
my gut reaction was: put it into a named graph
16:43:35 [mhausenblas]
so, question arises: what's the named graph's name? :)
16:44:00 [oshani]
right.. I see
16:44:00 [mhausenblas]
simple answer would be: the email address or the WebID of the user, right?
16:44:06 [oshani]
yep
16:44:11 [mhausenblas]
hm. dunno. got a better idea?
16:44:53 [mhausenblas]
btw, did you read/skim the last version of the paper. restructured quite a lot and worked in most of the stuff we discussed the other day
16:45:49 [mhausenblas]
would be cool if timbl could have another quick look at it, see if it fits (and where the HTTP:WWW = SPARQL(U):GGG stuff should go. my guess was discussion section)
16:47:58 [mhausenblas]
I'll work another hour or so on the paper. if presbrey and you can then finalise the respective bits, would be cool
16:48:48 [presbrey]
I have just pulled todays and will reread
16:50:03 [mhausenblas]
cool, ta
16:50:20 [mhausenblas]
gimme one more hour please to complete stuff and then it's all yours ;)
16:54:29 [oshani]
mhausenblas, okay, so here's what I think should happen... there's some calendar data associated with a webID. You use the UID of the event and the WebID on the RDForm pane to update the event. Oana's store handles the SPARQL Update event, and I will send this WebID along with the calendar info. (She mentioned that it should be possible to push the updates to the Google calendar via a cron job with the "UpdateCalendar.php"? - not sure if it's
16:55:08 [mhausenblas]
ok
16:55:18 [mhausenblas]
maybe lost the last sentence? :)
16:56:12 [oshani]
yeap.. I am a little bit fuzzy with the connection between updateStore and updateCalendar
16:57:32 [oshani]
okay, what I meant to say was... Tabulator will only send the updates to the store.. and the updateCalendar is responsible for actually updating the stuff on Google calendar
16:57:53 [mhausenblas]
yes, that's how I understood it ...
16:57:54 [oshani]
but it needs to authenticate the user
16:58:03 [mhausenblas]
yeah, hence the redirect
16:58:08 [oshani]
yep
16:58:14 [mhausenblas]
hang on, I'm gonna ask Oana to join in here
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17:00:41 [mhausenblas]
ok, hi oanure ;)
17:00:50 [oanure]
hi :)
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17:01:25 [mhausenblas]
so, there was a question re updateStore and updateCalendar - why do we have two?
17:01:52 [oanure]
updateStore updates the rdf store
17:02:04 [oanure]
and updateCalendar updates the Google calendar
17:02:17 [oanure]
the updateCalendar should be set as a cron job
17:02:30 [oanure]
that checks if anything has changed in the store
17:02:39 [oshani]
oanure, but how will updateCalendar authenticate the use?
17:02:40 [oanure]
I thought that that was the idea
17:02:43 [oshani]
s/use/user
17:03:10 [oanure]
well..
17:03:16 [mhausenblas]
right (but why cron job, why not just polling - as an aside ...)
17:03:23 [oanure]
updateCalendar asks the user to authenticate
17:03:39 [mhausenblas]
ah, right I remember, the redirect issue
17:03:45 [oanure]
the user, will see the Google authentication page
17:04:00 [oanure]
and authenticate with username/passw
17:04:01 [mhausenblas]
I guess we can't/don't want to handle that in Tabulator, right, oshani?
17:04:19 [oshani]
nope.. at least not right now
17:05:10 [mhausenblas]
ok, so how should that work,now
17:05:18 [mhausenblas]
user enters WebID in Tab, right?
17:05:23 [mhausenblas]
then, what happens?
17:06:52 [oshani]
I could do this: for updateStore to asscociate a calendar event with a particular user, I can send the webID and the google mbox along with the updated event info to updateStore, and then do a GET on updateCalendar for authentication
17:07:07 [oshani]
this sounds like a very bad kludge though
17:07:36 [mhausenblas]
hmmmm
17:08:03 [mhausenblas]
JSONP callback?
17:08:07 [mhausenblas]
jsut thinking aloud
17:08:37 [oshani]
not familiar with JSONP
17:09:13 [mhausenblas]
well, it would be mainly oanure who implements it (though pretty easy in PHP)
17:09:45 [mhausenblas]
you'd just need to register and wait till you get the callback ... or so .. I tend to forget/confuse the details :)
17:09:49 [oanure]
yea, it can be an idea, right after calling updateStore, call updateCalendar, so we do not have to set a cron job
17:10:09 [oanure]
yes, it can be an idea, right after calling updateStore, call updateCalendar, so we do not have to set a cron job
17:10:11 [mhausenblas]
boy, this is gonna be a loooong nite :)
17:10:22 [oanure]
it doesn't have to :)
17:11:52 [oshani]
mhausenblas, oanure I imagine this would be a problem with any other API, isn't it? So instead of finding a specific solution to this problem only... I wonder whteher there's anyway we could have the "writewrapper" (in this case the "updateStore" and "updateCalendar") to have a pretty standard auth mechanism that talks to the API?
17:12:11 [mhausenblas]
agree. which one? :)
17:12:51 [oshani]
don't have a good idea -- would be ideal if FOAF+SSL or your WAC proposal could provide a solution to this
17:13:29 [mhausenblas]
presbrey?
17:13:37 [mhausenblas]
(your WAC ... ? ;)
17:14:04 [oshani]
oh sorry presbrey.. messed up attribution :)
17:14:05 [oanure]
I don't think this is a good idea, for 2 days left
17:15:11 [mhausenblas]
valid point, but ... :)
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17:25:38 [mhausenblas]
btw, HTTP:WWW = SPARQL(U):GGG stuff and the other points timbl made yesterday are now in the paper (see section 6)
17:26:06 [mhausenblas]
don't worry re the space, I'l do the polishing at the very end ...
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17:27:14 [mhausenblas]
gotta leave soon now for and hour or two - cya later
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17:27:58 [oanure]
yes, me too
17:28:01 [oanure]
:)
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19:02:49 [jambo]
timbl, if you have a second, i have a few final questions about the webid acl stuff
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20:06:47 [kennyluck]
timbl, can I join the discussion?
20:08:03 [oshani]
didn't start it yet - he's talking with jambo
20:08:26 [kennyluck]
OK
20:10:35 [oshani]
kennyluck, do you want to Skype in?
20:10:48 [kennyluck]
I can try
20:11:20 [sophiayakoubov]
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20:11:42 [kennyluck]
But my speaking and talking are very weak
20:11:50 [kennyluck]
what's the phone number?
20:12:03 [oshani]
Skype
20:12:12 [kennyluck]
call you?
20:13:30 [kennyluck]
can you her me?
20:14:27 [oshani]
nope
20:14:33 [oshani]
can you hear me?
20:14:48 [kennyluck]
yes, I can.
20:15:35 [kennyluck]
hello
20:15:38 [kennyluck]
yes
20:16:22 [kennyluck]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/Talks/0609-tmsweb-kennyluck/
20:20:26 [kennyluck]
what file? SVN record or rule?
20:20:54 [kennyluck]
for what?
20:21:26 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:21:55 [kennyluck]
This event goes to the RSS channel
20:22:09 [kennyluck]
The javascript skill goes to my wiki
20:22:21 [oshani]
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/wiki/Kenny
20:22:31 [oshani]
you mean that?
20:22:34 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:23:49 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:24:28 [mikeR]
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20:24:43 [kennyluck]
"Kenny javascript kill" and "{Kenny javascirpt skill} tms:justifi...}" are in the same file
20:25:28 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:25:33 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:26:42 [kennyluck]
Yes it looks checks kb.any(one_statement_formula, tms:justification)
20:26:57 [kennyluck]
It only works for one_statement_formula but not two
20:27:22 [kennyluck]
the hash only works for one statement formulae
20:35:19 [kennyluck]
slides! slides!
20:35:52 [timbl]
Kenny , really sorrry I missed your talk ... I couldn't move the next meeting
20:36:08 [kennyluck]
that's fine. I just feel like the slides are in some sense clearer than the paper.
20:36:17 [timbl]
That's interestimng
20:36:28 [timbl]
Maybe then some of the slides should go into te papge
20:38:43 [mhausenblas]
timbl, please lemme know if and when you've got a sec or to re the ISWC paper - would like to know if you are ok with the latest edits (starting point Tabulator, etc.)
20:39:24 [kennyluck]
anyway, these are slides
20:40:46 [kennyluck]
Yes,
20:40:50 [kennyluck]
kingsley
20:43:47 [kennyluck]
Yes
20:44:17 [kennyluck]
http://people.csail.mit.edu/kennyluck/CV
20:44:24 [kennyluck]
a little RDFa
20:44:57 [kennyluck]
<body about="http://dig.csail.mit.edu/People/kennyluck#I">
20:46:36 [timbl]
Even though you don't talkj to us, Kenny, at least you ar using IRC... Maybe in the future only SPARL/Update messages ;-)
20:47:48 [kennyluck]
I was adding the precondition "For doing reporting bugs..."
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20:51:08 [ruthd]
i had to turn the tabulator extension off 'cause it kept giving me 'a script is causing this page to run slowly' stuff
20:51:15 [timbl]
{ F trueBecause G } => { F a log:Truth }. {{ s p o} a log:Trutth}=> {s p o}.
20:51:35 [timbl]
Ah, ruth -- sorry about that --- Oshani will fix it right away :)
20:51:45 [timbl]
s/right away/on Monday/
20:51:50 [ruthd]
oh wow =) cool
20:51:56 [kennyluck]
:)
20:51:58 [timbl]
(she is standing next to me -- I had noticed that too)
20:52:19 [timbl]
(The more peer pressure the better ;-)
20:53:11 [kennyluck]
Yes, I notice there's thread managment component since Firefox 3
20:53:23 [kennyluck]
Very promising
20:53:26 [ruthd]
what browser are you on, mhausenblas?
20:53:45 [kennyluck]
It's very slow with my PowerBook G4
20:53:51 [mhausenblas]
FF 3.0.11 on MAcOS
20:54:09 [mhausenblas]
4GB RAM ...
20:54:17 [kennyluck]
not fair!!
20:54:25 [ruthd]
humbug
20:54:35 [mhausenblas]
life is not meant to be fair, kennyluck ;)
20:54:47 [mhausenblas]
ruthd? humbug? :)
20:55:06 [ruthd]
too much dickens
20:55:12 [mhausenblas]
hehe
20:55:56 [kennyluck]
thanks!
20:56:24 [kennyluck]
The food is very nice!
20:57:26 [kennyluck]
I haven't decided what I am going to do. I want to produce some Linked Data from Japan.
20:57:36 [kennyluck]
My first target is WordNet.
20:58:15 [ruthd]
there's an mit recent grad working at google tokyo
20:58:47 [kennyluck]
I might also want to implement the what I call "Web-scaled garbage collector", also described briefly in the paper, with my new friends here.
20:59:28 [kennyluck]
wow, ruthd, maybe I should look for him/her.
20:59:41 [ruthd]
jason katz-brown, do you know him? i think he was '08
21:00:09 [ruthd]
can i read your paper, kenny?
21:00:51 [kennyluck]
No I don't know him, hmm... thank you, I would take some time to visit google tokyo.
21:01:07 [kennyluck]
We were just having a remote meeting for the paper
21:01:14 [ruthd]
he's actually here in mountain view, right now, but he'll be back there in a few weeks
21:02:27 [kennyluck]
I see.
21:03:27 [kennyluck]
The paper is http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/Papers/ISWC/lod-computations/paper , ruthd
21:03:35 [kennyluck]
far from being completed though
21:04:40 [ruthd]
are we moving into an file-extension-less world?
21:04:49 [ruthd]
it's a little scary
21:05:58 [kennyluck]
why?
21:06:14 [kennyluck]
it's simply because I want to make a HTML version of the paper
21:06:20 [kennyluck]
I hate pdf, ruthd.
21:06:22 [ruthd]
I don't know -- I'm just so accustomed to being able to know filetype from the name
21:06:29 [ruthd]
Haha, well, I would expect paper/paper.tex
21:06:30 [kennyluck]
I think google people hate pdf too
21:06:34 [ruthd]
and paper/paper.html
21:06:40 [ruthd]
and paper/paper.pdf
21:06:49 [ruthd]
then i would feel in control and less distressed
21:07:04 [ruthd]
PDF is pretty. I am shallow like that.
21:07:11 [kennyluck]
Oh, but I like the content negotiation feature of HTTP, so that's why
21:07:36 [ruthd]
ye-e-es, i mean, logically I can see why... I just find it distressing
21:07:58 [ruthd]
I click the link, but I have no idea what I'm going to get.
21:08:06 [kennyluck]
come on, wikipeida entries are extension-less
21:08:22 [ruthd]
but i'm not downloading those =)
21:08:37 [kennyluck]
In fact, people should use the type attribute for <a> element
21:08:47 [ruthd]
that's true though -- if it just opened in-browser, i probably wouldn't mind
21:08:52 [kennyluck]
guess nobody has ever done that
21:08:56 [ruthd]
there's a type attribute for <a>?
21:09:03 [ruthd]
type=text/plain ?
21:09:05 [kennyluck]
yep, content type
21:09:10 [kennyluck]
uh-huh
21:09:16 [ruthd]
interesting
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23:18:28 [ruthd]
duude, i met the RDFa guy just now
23:18:34 [ruthd]
what is #dig opinion on RDFa
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