00:03:37 <presbrey> nm. minihackathon this afternoon
00:04:45 <presbrey> ericP, trop tard
00:05:06 <presbrey> port drat
00:11:33 <ericP> all worky now?
00:29:00 <presbrey> no ericP sparql delete gives an exception
00:30:02 <timbl> Oh, hey eripc
00:30:07 <timbl> just the man
00:47:13 <timbl> hmmm .. bulyt a test harness and found a bug
00:47:28 <timbl> s/harness/for the harness/
01:19:42 <timbl> oops
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01:21:32 <timbl> http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state won't parse and N3
01:22:03 <timbl> Ha ... same problem as I had on the client side at one point
01:22:07 <timbl> "This is to test a two-^
01:22:07 <timbl> line description."
01:22:14 <timbl> in line 1088
01:23:07 <timbl> In js that's 
01:23:07 <timbl>     str = str.replace(/\\/g, '\\\\');  // escape backslashes
01:23:07 <timbl>     str = str.replace(/\"/g, '\\"');    // escape quotes
01:23:08 <timbl>     str = str.replace(/\n/g, '\\n');    // escape newlines
01:23:45 <timbl> on output or 
01:23:59 <timbl>         str = str.replace(/\\"/g, '"');    // unescape quotes '
01:23:59 <timbl>         str = str.replace(/\\n/g, '\n');    // unescape newlines
01:23:59 <timbl>         str = str.replace(/\\\\/g, '\\');  // unescape backslashes 
01:24:02 <timbl> on input
01:25:06 <timbl> It is actually the last line of the file
01:25:38 <timbl> maybe after than got added the delete stopped working because it couldn't parse the file
01:26:15 <timbl> Are you doing the inserts just by appending to the file, I wonder? In which case one could end up with dups?
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02:09:09 <timbl> Hi knappy
02:09:19 <knappy> hi
02:10:29 <timbl> I've been having a go at the issue pane, more or less usable now, but the dig.xvm.mit.edu new wiki is down -- it was working very nicely yseterday
02:11:21 <knappy> new wiki?
02:12:16 <timbl> EricP and Joe P have been building a new version of the wiki - they started on Friday, and made great progress.
02:12:25 <knappy> oh yeah
02:12:30 <timbl> But currently now you can insert things but delete them 
02:13:00 <knappy> ok
02:13:21 <timbl> Have a good weekend?
02:13:38 <knappy> I actually didn't do anything this weekend
02:13:39 <knappy> ><
02:13:42 <knappy> How about you?
02:14:48 <knappy> >< is supposed to be a face
02:14:48 <timbl> Drove up to NH and back yesterday
02:14:52 <knappy> oh wow
02:14:54 <knappy> for what?
02:15:02 <timbl> to drop off my son 
02:15:09 <knappy> oh
02:15:13 <timbl> but anyway
02:15:29 <timbl> The tracker is broken atm
02:15:37 <knappy> ok
02:15:42 <timbl> I wonder if i could kjust fix the file
02:19:16 <timbl> fixed
02:19:24 <knappy> nice
02:20:40 <timbl> If you pull the latest tabulator and look at http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2010/issues/track#TabTracker
02:20:52 <knappy> ok
02:21:22 <nunnun_away> nunnun_away is now known as nunnun
02:21:31 <knappy> done
02:22:26 <timbl> Ok, so there are various tets bugs and a couple of real ones.
02:22:33 <timbl> You can make a new bug
02:22:51 <timbl> You can't change the state of a bug because that means deleting the old state
02:23:10 <timbl> That is waiting for ericp to fix deletion. 
02:23:54 <knappy> k
02:26:08 <timbl> I also added a bit to the library, like $rdf.graph() for making a new formula, and $rdf.term() for making a literal out of a javascript value.  that is the state of the tabulator at the moment.  ..
02:28:34 <knappy> What things should I put in the issue tracker
02:28:51 <timbl> I'd only play with it until it is more stable
02:29:09 <timbl> You can note things which need to be fixed
02:29:54 <timbl> In general, the issue tracker is a sort of commonagenda, a list of wishes and bugs to be done, and a way of making sure we don't forget them.. so you put in things to remidn yourself or someoen else or to suggest a feature for discussioon.
02:30:04 <timbl> The comment feature is a bit crude just now.
02:30:57 <kennyluck> I like the "dependency tracking" part of issue tracker :)
02:30:58 <knappy> I see
02:31:44 <kennyluck> notice that Bugzilla and Redmine have such features but not roundtrip without addon.
02:32:10 <timbl> dependency?
02:32:17 <kennyluck> Links between issues. Should be made to allow cross domain links.
02:32:27 <timbl> Yes. very true.
02:32:29 <kennyluck> block
02:32:34 <kennyluck> doAfter
02:32:34 <timbl> But i though I hadn't put them in yet
02:32:36 <kennyluck> like that.
02:33:03 <timbl> doAfter is interesting -- for PERT charts
02:33:37 <timbl> also just a dependency on either any of or all of a set of subtasks.
02:33:45 <kennyluck> yeah, "block" and "doAfter" have slight difference semantically in Redmine
02:33:55 <kennyluck> yes, "block" is used for subtasks
02:33:57 <timbl> "this sutask is a requirement for that"
02:34:08 <kennyluck> Mozilla calls them "tracking bugs"
02:34:10 <timbl> or "this subtaks would completely satisfy that"
02:34:16 <kennyluck> HTML tracking bug, Acid3 tracking bug, etc.
02:34:20 <kennyluck> HTML5
02:34:30 <timbl> HTML5 is a super container bug?
02:34:43 <kennyluck> Yeah
02:35:07 <timbl> One thing I liek about this RDF-driven one is it is very easily configurable
02:35:38 <timbl> So people can design their own states and state transitions and the process around them.
02:35:52 <timbl> But hem if you link bugs between groups you have to have some commonality.
02:36:06 <timbl> Maybe we ask every bug state to be classified as open or closed
02:36:35 <kennyluck> timbl, this is an example https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=acid3
02:36:42 <timbl> Or we just have one "closed" terminal state which them propagates through the dependencies.
02:37:37 <timbl> I see the moz one
02:38:25 <timbl> I have been using the time in miliseconds since 1970  for bug IDs
02:38:36 <timbl> Do you think we should have sequential ones
02:38:55 <kennyluck> I don't know.
02:39:51 <timbl> You can  generate a next if by storing it in the wiki ad doing a single SPARQL update to increment it, deleting one number and inserting the next. If the sparql succeed you know noone else has grabbed that same number.
02:40:00 <timbl> But I thought that was a bit complicated
02:40:40 <timbl> but a cute way of doing it I thought.
02:40:52 <kennyluck> I think I like sequential ones, but yeah, synchronization is a big problem.
02:41:40 <timbl> So long as sparql update doesn't fail silently (ericp) then you can use it for mutex
02:42:31 <timbl> DELETE { <thing> reservedby <noone> } INSERT { <thing> reservedby <me> }  sort of thing in one operation.
02:42:41 <timbl> So we need an eror code for  "delet failed"
02:44:18 <kennyluck> Anyway, I can't wait for "Google Todos"
02:44:50 <timbl> They will come, if they aren't ther already -- lets get the distributed version out first
02:49:53 <presbrey> hi timbl ericP kennyluck
02:51:00 <timbl> That's better:
02:51:01 <timbl> js> $rdf.term(new Date()).toNT()
02:51:01 <timbl> "2010-8-9T2:50:38Z"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
02:51:12 <kennyluck> Hi, there.
02:52:01 <kennyluck> Sorry but I have to go. Gotta do some Linked Data tutoring.
02:52:15 <presbrey> is $rdf part of jquery
02:52:21 <presbrey> cya kennyluck
02:56:34 <timbl> Bye Kenny
02:56:54 <timbl> $rdf is not. It is the name we have adopted for the rdf library
02:57:04 <timbl> $ is ormally jquery
02:57:21 <timbl> I think the plan is that  $.rdf = $rdf
02:57:32 <timbl> in the tabulator environment.
02:57:46 <timbl> But I think we ar etrying to keep the jquery code independent of the rdf code
02:58:14 <timbl> and the rdfquery code, which is an extension to jquery depends on both
02:58:39 <timbl> I haven't leaned how to use jquery yet .. probably would save me some coding time
03:12:08 <ericP> sorry for absenteeism -- called off on a mission
03:12:16 <ericP> back now
03:12:31 <ericP> so there's a repeatable failure for update
03:12:54 <timbl> yes, anythingwhich involves  a DELETE.
03:14:26 <presbrey> i left you a backtrace and how to reproduce
03:14:57 <ericP> huh, looks like i never tested DELETE without a GRAPH constraint
03:15:25 <timbl> So you have a regresion test?
03:16:16 <ericP> http://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/swobjects/branches/sparql11/tests/test_SPARUL.cpp?view=markup&pathrev=1125#l_411
03:16:23 <ericP> starting line 36
03:16:30 <ericP> but they all have GRAPHs in them
03:16:39 <presbrey> how does swobjects-t.py get generated
03:17:16 <ericP> t_SWObjects and hand-written
03:17:45 <timbl> Eg: sparql: sending update to <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state>
03:17:45 <timbl>    query=DELETE { <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state#Iss1281320461301> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2010/issues/track#New> .
03:17:45 <timbl>  }
03:17:46 <timbl> INSERT { <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state#Iss1281320461301> <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type> <http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2010/issues/track#Chatting> .
03:17:46 <timbl>  }
03:17:46 <ericP> would be interesting to try to replicate all the tests into python,perl,java, but haven't tried to do that
03:17:46 <timbl> sparql: update complete for <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state> status=500, text.length=534
03:18:28 <ericP> BasicGraphPattern::deletePattern (this=0x7ea880, target=0x0, rs=0x7f1350, bgp=0x0)
03:18:29 <timbl> Well, running a test of the wiki across the network would mean the client coudl be written in anything
03:18:45 <ericP> i bet it's not graceful about default graph
03:19:41 <timbl> the only one we need :)
03:19:44 <presbrey> ericP, i copied swobjcts.[py,so] so rebuilds dont break the actual wiki space
03:20:15 <presbrey> copy to /srv/dig/lib/python to 'install'
03:21:12 <ericP> roger that
03:25:03 <ericP> writing tests -- then fixing code
03:25:08 <ericP> ETA ~ 20 mins
03:37:55 <ericP> hey, all my new delete tests fail
03:38:03 <ericP> who writes such junk?
03:39:46 <timbl> actually, going back to the earlier SVn conversation, (during this 20min) presbrey, i think maybe in the long run it is crazy to use SVN when we already have a set of diffs in the set of requests.  
03:40:05 <timbl> Seems crazy and slow for SVN to do a diff and generate a patch
03:41:14 <timbl> If we want to regenerate the state at any given time we just run all the requests up to that point through the server.
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03:50:42 <presbrey> DIGlogger, pointer
03:50:42 <presbrey> See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2010-08-09#T03-50-42
03:50:45 <ericP> hmm, tests passed -- could be harder
03:51:28 <ericP> (once i figured out the convention i used for data files)
03:54:17 <presbrey> have you thought anymore about handling the segfaults more generally
03:56:39 <ericP> no new inspirations since the safety scissors python wrapper
03:57:13 <presbrey> but that only works for python
03:57:15 <ericP> could make it a separate process, but that seems extravagent
03:57:55 <ericP> well, there's always fixing the bugs, but that doesn't make it much safer wrt odd input
04:01:21 <timbl> Do these segfaults come as C++ exceptions, or do tey break the whole exception system?
04:02:34 <presbrey> ha delete on the default graph is quite odd
04:02:53 <timbl> odd?
04:03:19 <ericP> this input isn't odd, but there are places where the SWIG interface doesn't enforce proper types
04:05:14 <ericP> presbrey, where's the script now?
04:05:36 <ericP> i think that, once again, the ResultSet needs to have the targed db set
04:05:53 <presbrey> what script, test.py is in /srv/dig/www/wiki
04:05:58 <ericP> i've got another fix for that, but compilation will take a bit
04:06:50 <ericP> the one which imports SWObjects, parses and executes
04:08:21 <presbrey> sure /srv/dig/www/wiki/test.py should be good for that
04:08:37 <presbrey> there's a delete.sparql in the same dir
04:08:48 <presbrey> it was on issues.n3 i think in tabulator
04:09:10 <presbrey> though i don't think it gets far enough for that to matter
04:09:26 <presbrey> last argv is the base-uri
04:09:58 <ericP> anyways, try the new SWObjects.py and _SWObjects.so in /usr/local/src/SWObjects/brancehs/sparql11/swig/python/
04:12:44 <ericP> status?
04:13:43 <timbl> ?
04:15:36 <presbrey> no segv
04:15:37 <ericP> i built new libs, was wondering if they worked
04:15:56 <ericP> that not "no, segv", is it?
04:17:07 <presbrey> yes delete works on the wiki now
04:17:13 <presbrey> just restarted it
04:17:26 <ericP> rockin'
04:20:04 <ericP> ok, bed time
04:20:48 <timbl> working?
04:21:47 <timbl> Ok, looks good
04:22:56 <timbl> Nice -- thanks ericp and presbrey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:22:59 <timbl> good night
04:32:50 <presbrey> good night
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11:28:46 <anthony.freenode.net> topic is: Decentralized Information Group @ MIT http://dig.csail.mit.edu/
11:28:46 <anthony.freenode.net> Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS_ kennyluck presbrey lkagal timbl Yudai_ ericP gbot46 sandro nunnun
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13:23:02 <timbl> nice
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16:00:46 <presbrey> ericP
16:01:08 <presbrey> I'm going to get a little python wrapper for SWObjects going
16:03:44 <presbrey> its in /srv/dig/lib/python/swobjects
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16:31:49 <presbrey> just kidding, /srv/dig/www/wiki/swobjects.py
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18:02:06 <presbrey> new data wiki does POST text/turtle append
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18:08:14 <melvster> when would an insert not be an append?
18:08:40 <melvster> oh silly me, when it's RDF
18:08:46 <melvster> NOT RDF
18:16:29 <presbrey> simple PUT and DELETE also now implemented
18:17:31 <presbrey> OK I think that covers it. nothing special in python for OPTIONS
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18:22:28 <ericP> don't forget M_DAV_META_PUT, presbrey 
18:24:14 <presbrey> whats that
18:24:28 <presbrey> this handler is only advertising SPARQL, not DAV
18:28:37 <melvster> i think i send sparql, webdav and the cors thingy
18:32:32 <melvster> Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *  
18:33:40 <ericP> presbrey, i was just noting your vigilance at covering all of the HTTP verbs
18:34:34 <ericP> then demonstrating that by parodying the verbs i've seen in other specs (HTTP Extensions, DAV)
18:39:08 <presbrey> I think get, post, put, and delete covers enough for now
18:39:42 <presbrey> melvster, curl -X OPTIONS http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/presbrey -v     to see what we send
18:40:28 <presbrey> no how could I forget HEAD!
18:40:28 <melvster> cool!
18:41:12 <presbrey> ericP, did you work on the ?graph= business?
18:41:51 <presbrey> I'm looking at w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/
18:41:57 <ericP> presbrey, CONNECT
18:42:07 <ericP> though i have no idea how people use it
18:42:27 <presbrey> curious how timbl is thinking to merge into that
18:42:30 <ericP> not sure if i have or haven't. remind me what it was?
18:42:58 <presbrey> ?graph= looks equivalent to GRAPH { } in the SPARUL
18:44:33 <ericP> service?default-graph-uri="foo"&query="INSERT { <s> <p> 1 }"  vs.  service?query="INSERT { GRAPH <foo> { <s> <p> 1 } }"  ?
18:52:41 <presbrey> yes looks to be something like that
19:13:09 <timbl> timbl (~timbl@31-35-252.wireless.csail.mit.edu) has joined #dig
19:13:20 <timbl> A new one sparql: update complete for <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state> status=415, text.length=0
19:13:28 <timbl> 415
19:16:43 <presbrey> wiki HEAD requests work now too
19:17:16 <presbrey> afternoon timbl
19:17:30 <timbl> 415 = TTP Error 415 Unsupported media type
19:17:36 <presbrey> sparql POST takes application/sparql-query or text/turtle
19:17:45 <presbrey> what are you sending?
19:17:59 <timbl> I thought, same as I was sending yesterday!
19:18:08 <presbrey> today I'm checking
19:18:12 <presbrey> which you send
19:18:20 <presbrey> and text/turtle does an append
19:18:24 <presbrey> instead of sparql query
19:18:39 <timbl> excellent
19:18:48 <presbrey> indeed
19:19:05 <presbrey> DELETE, PUT, and HEAD all work too
19:19:36 <presbrey> testing with curl, all the same things work from yesterday
19:20:56 <timbl> BTW there is a spec very close to this from the DAWG (sparql group)
19:20:57 <timbl>     xhr.setRequestHeader('Content-type', 'application/sparql-query');
19:21:12 <timbl> (This is your code, this file ... sparqlUpfate.js)
19:21:44 <timbl> It hasn't changed
19:22:24 <presbrey> ha
19:23:16 <presbrey> can you go post again please
19:23:22 <timbl> :-) credit where crdedis due
19:23:35 <timbl> posted
19:23:38 <presbrey> ohhh POST application/sparql-query; charset=UTF-8
19:24:00 <presbrey> always forget that semi-;
19:24:34 <timbl> I wonder who put on the UTF-8 -- firefox??! ?
19:25:04 <presbrey> those sneaks. try again
19:25:08 <timbl> Or is that what you expect?
19:25:39 <presbrey> looks like you got it that time
19:25:56 <presbrey> silly me putting in new features and not testing in tabulator
19:26:11 <presbrey> good thing yours is working tim thanks ;)
19:26:16 <timbl> you shoudl be using tabulator every moment of course
19:26:19 <timbl> :)
19:26:36 <presbrey> its still hard to write Python in tabulator otherwise I would be
19:26:48 <timbl> A regression test of curl scripts or python would seem a good idea
19:27:17 <presbrey> I have some for swobjects python of insert vs. append
19:27:41 <presbrey> some curl ones would be good yes
19:27:53 <presbrey> re. the DAWG spec
19:28:20 <presbrey> I did read your comments to chimezie
19:28:37 <presbrey> as I commented to ericP earlier
19:28:52 <presbrey> ?graph= argument in their spec seems sketchy within our model
19:29:32 <presbrey> you go about '?' in general
19:29:42 <timbl> yes, taht's no way  to run a restaurant -- that is, you want to access something with a uri, go there. anything else is a kludge, perhaps a useful kluge but secondary.
19:30:04 <presbrey> I'm not sure other ?kw break things as much as ?graph
19:30:08 <timbl> Yes, I don't see why people s oftern stick all the info behing a "?"
19:30:28 <timbl> shows how they code, but doesn't make it better
19:30:42 <presbrey> ?graph is really the worst offender =~ GRAPH{} if you want to use HTTP and do things based on the HTTP URI like ACL
19:31:24 <presbrey> otherwise all you can ACL is the endpoint and not the documents therein at least with webid authz
19:31:35 <presbrey> of course you know these things ;)
19:32:12 <presbrey> anyway timbl you should test that you like how HEAD and DELETE work
19:32:27 <presbrey> these are two new methods in our data wiki
19:32:28 <timbl> Confusion between graph and document is an issue.
19:34:18 <timbl> Do you think we should have MS-Author-Via: SPARQL,DAV
19:34:21 <timbl> ?
19:34:43 <timbl> so that DAV-only clients can use it?
19:34:49 <presbrey> not unless we go make sure DAV clients can use it
19:34:59 <timbl> true
19:35:16 <timbl> The code in the tabulator I have moved and have not tested it
19:35:21 <presbrey> DAV 1 is probably easily achievable in python, DAV 2 needs mod_webdav for sure
19:35:41 <timbl> tabulator need minimal DAV -- basically PUT
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19:35:55 <timbl>  MS-Author-Via: SPARQL,PUT
19:36:00 <presbrey> ha
19:36:14 <presbrey> the DAV headers I know of say:
19:36:21 <presbrey> DAV: [version-list]
19:36:24 <presbrey> like DAV: 1
19:36:28 <presbrey> vs. DAV: 1, 2
19:36:38 <timbl> That's a separate DAV: header
19:36:43 <presbrey> so we could say Author-Via: SPARQL, DAV
19:36:46 <presbrey> and additionally specify DAV: 1
19:36:59 <timbl> But do we do all of DAV 1
19:42:57 <presbrey> rfc4918 won't tell me but I bet 1 is doable
19:45:37 <presbrey> dav class 1 is generally short for 'no locking'
19:45:56 <presbrey> I'm not sure its worth doing much beyond PUT if thats what tabulator needs
19:46:14 <timbl> lets not then
19:48:32 <timbl> Lets just get this functionality solid
19:48:33 <presbrey> we can always turn on mod_webdav behind the data wiki and try to make them friends
19:48:42 <timbl> sparql: update complete for <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state> status=500, text.length=534
19:49:03 <timbl> That was doing a delete, insert
19:49:18 <timbl> no just an insert
19:50:07 <presbrey> bet its the quotes
19:52:58 <presbrey> INSERT { <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state#Iss1281381924208> <http://www.w3.org/2005/01/wf/flow#description> "The tabulator \"Find All\" button does not work as the views have been turned off." . }
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20:00:06 <timbl> That's one to remember for the test suite :)
20:00:15 <timbl> The error got into the file:  Error trying to parse <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state> as Notation3: Line 1 of <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state>: Bad syntax: expected '.' or '}' or ']' at end of statement at: "Find All" button does not work"
20:01:05 <timbl> If you are escaping " and \n remember to escape \ too 
20:01:55 <presbrey> did you reupload it? the file looks ok to me
20:02:08 <presbrey> I don't escape post data
20:02:14 <timbl> The tabulator uploaded it and complained
20:02:46 <timbl> cwm http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state fails too same way
20:03:47 <timbl> The last line of the file ends: "The tabulator "Find All" button does not work as the views have been turned off." .
20:03:55 <timbl> without escaping 
20:04:46 <presbrey> looks like a bug in ericPs turtle serializer to me
20:05:13 <timbl> yes.
20:05:30 <timbl> where is the code for that
20:05:53 <timbl> We should put cwm and it and rdflib.js though the same sries of tests
20:06:43 <presbrey> https://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/swobjects/
20:07:19 <presbrey> https://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/swobjects/branches/sparql11/lib/
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20:16:43 <presbrey> then not much to do on the wiki until next swobjects release
20:20:47 <timbl> Indeed.   Looks like this could be an issue:
20:20:47 <timbl>     virtual void rdfLiteral (const RDFLiteral* const, std::string lexicalValue, const URI* datatype, LANGTAG* p_LANGTAG) {
20:20:47 <timbl> 	ret << '"' << lexicalValue << '"';
20:20:48 <timbl> 	if (datatype != NULL) { ret << "^^<" << datatype->getLexicalValue() << '>'; }
20:20:48 <timbl> 	if (p_LANGTAG != NULL) { ret << '@' << p_LANGTAG->getLexicalValue(); }
20:20:48 <timbl> 	ret << ' ';
20:21:09 <timbl> .
20:21:11 <timbl> in https://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/swobjects/branches/sparql11/lib/SPARQLSerializer.hpp
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20:21:29 <timbl> just quotes the literal value withouyt escaping
20:22:02 <timbl> But that is in the sparql serializer, could be reused as NT serializer.
20:23:24 <presbrey> O
20:23:27 <presbrey> I'm calling
20:23:42 <presbrey> _SWObjects.RdfDB.toString('text/turtle')
20:26:18 <presbrey> you can see my swobjects wrapper eg. DefaultGraph in swobjects.py in wiki
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20:38:57 <presbrey> timbl, how do you imagine sw conneg working?
20:38:57 <timbl> -------------------------------
20:39:17 <timbl> 	if (posStr[0] == '"' && posStr[posStr.size()-1] == '"')
20:39:17 <timbl> 	    return getRDFLiteral(posStr.substr(1, posStr.size()-2), NULL, NULL);
20:39:18 <timbl> -------- in https://swobjects.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/swobjects/branches/sparql11/lib/SWObjects.cpp
20:39:20 <presbrey> all the q= quality, preference arguments still apply?
20:39:37 <timbl> looks like a bug -- no handling of data types, or language
20:40:11 <timbl> umm yes, in fcat you have to be careful with q's
20:40:11 <presbrey> unless getRDFLiteral works
20:40:34 <timbl> If there is a lng or a datatype, the last ch won't be a "
20:40:55 <timbl> like "123"^^<http:/....integer>
20:41:05 <timbl> or "chat'@fr
20:41:46 <presbrey> and what about Accept langs?
20:41:57 <presbrey> is that going to only give you triples in the output of a certain lang?
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20:42:18 <timbl> There, the RDF system tends to supply multiple language labels in ontologies and so the conneg isn't used.
20:42:51 <presbrey> so lang is ignored in accept header
20:42:56 <presbrey> or is it invalid to send
20:42:58 <timbl> But for soemthing wihc is basiaclly RDF but an html renderingis possible, you should make sure the server prefers RDF. Or the tabulatr, which handles RDF and HTML, son't get the RDF.
20:43:16 <presbrey> I was mostly thinking of the data wiki
20:43:38 <presbrey> effects on transforms and projections I'll leave for another day
20:44:02 <presbrey> and data in general, which would be nice to not always store n times for each n rdf formats
20:44:12 <presbrey> my foaf already
20:45:07 <timbl> The tabulator will send lang pref st te server, the server can ignore it
20:45:15 <timbl> for the data wiki
20:45:54 <timbl> Oh, as regards N formats, we should be able for these languages to do  fast streaming conversion
20:46:34 <timbl> The cwm NT parser and RDF/XML serializer will work in a stream.
20:48:04 <timbl> so the python wrapper could convert on the fly from the internal n3 to people who wanted rdf/xml
20:48:36 <presbrey> I was thinking of a separate layer in straight C using redland/rapper
20:48:59 <timbl> If they stream, sure,
20:49:10 <timbl> C should be faster
20:49:29 <presbrey> lots more formats (and tested with string escapes)
20:49:46 <presbrey> eg. nt, ttl, rdfxml, rss, atom, dot, json-triples, json
20:50:19 <timbl> dot?
20:50:25 <presbrey> ha a graphviz format
20:50:42 <timbl> For sparql results, CSV is handy for many people oiut there
20:50:52 <presbrey> C should mean faster, separate should mean easier to get others to install independent of sparql
20:51:11 <timbl> I do indeed have some RDF to dot converter, wasn't sure you meant the same dot!
20:51:12 <presbrey> conneg to mean just means reserializing RDF data, no sparql
20:51:22 <timbl> yes.
20:51:55 <timbl> And I think generating jason is a reasonabl ething for  rdf.   but dot should be the application side.
20:52:15 <timbl> The idea of this is commodity storage. 
20:52:28 <timbl> The storage shoudl not include any application
20:52:39 <presbrey> it would be cool if you could say Accept:text/json to a HTML w/ RDFa document
20:52:40 <timbl> so it will work with all applications and be timeless
20:53:16 <timbl> well, taht functionality shoudl be put in the client.
20:53:28 <timbl> The client has total control over what it wanst  to do with the data.
20:53:55 <presbrey> why don't you want to conneg json, turtle, rdfxml, etc. from RDFa?
20:53:58 <timbl> There are limits to conneg.
20:54:10 <timbl> It might neem neat rfom pprogrammer POV to ask for JASON.
20:54:17 <timbl> Butthen the JASON they get back has no URI
20:54:44 <timbl> You start the  quoting curl commands instead of URIs. Then the URI has failed.
20:55:06 <timbl> Better to have a link tp hte data resource link edfrom the HTML web page, so each has a URI.
20:55:08 <presbrey> if my browser asks for HTML on an RDF and it gives me some RDFa, I think it should give me back the RDF from RDFa
20:55:51 <timbl> ETOOMANYUNBOUNPREPOSITIONS
20:56:03 <presbrey> sorry
20:56:34 <timbl> not houting, just emulating an IBM systm
20:57:20 <presbrey> its ok I always read errors as implied whisper
20:57:32 <presbrey> IBM doesn't know any better
20:58:03 <presbrey> so end-to-end, I expect a server that constructs RDFa from RDF on the fly to also do the reverse. RDF from RDFa.
20:58:16 <presbrey> I'm not sure about the URI argument, I'll have to reread that.
20:58:47 <presbrey> but it seems like we're already cheating the URI in a sense that all the data is actually <URI>*.n3*
20:59:07 <timbl> When a page uis HTML, then you never know what you are missing when you look at only the RDFa.
20:59:27 <timbl> No, not cheating at all. We define the URI space.
20:59:42 <timbl> We omit details of how iy is stored, so we can change tah twithout issue.
20:59:59 <presbrey> when a page is HTML, an agent who can only use (Accept:) RDF/RDFa won't be missing since it can't read HTML anyway
21:00:08 <timbl> Then to actually map onto a file, as we are using files this time, we can do watever we want that makes it easy to run the server.
21:00:48 <presbrey> we might want to change that on the server now to .ttl instead since its not really n3
21:00:58 <timbl> yes about not missing it, but what about a tabulator user, who follows a link and can hndle data and hypertext?
21:01:13 <timbl> Should the window be divided into two views?
21:01:47 <presbrey> multiple panes? thats what tabulator is all about eh?
21:02:12 <timbl> Well, I'd prefer a smooth upgrade path to n3. yes, maybe we should use .ttl .. not sure.
21:02:28 <presbrey> (reminds me... view-source with tabulator still doesn't show the data)
21:10:51 <presbrey> ok I'm gonna go fix my python rasqal bindings
21:17:35 <presbrey> actually, there is one good ?kw= I'd like to support
21:17:39 <presbrey> ?callback=
21:22:19 <presbrey> but its still just more conneg
21:33:03 <timbl> Maybe we need a source pane
21:33:26 <timbl> It isn't trivial because of the way Jambo made the tabr work now.
21:34:11 <timbl> ooops
21:34:12 <timbl> sparql: update failed for <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state> status=500, Internal Server Error, body length=534
21:34:12 <timbl>    for query: INSERT { <http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state#Iss1281389515428> <http://www.w3.org/2005/01/wf/flow#description> "Before the refactor, View Source would wok on an RDF file. Now it doesn't. " .
21:34:12 <timbl>  }
21:34:50 <timbl> After I carefully scanned the data for quotes too
21:35:03 <timbl> Ha .. maybe the  single '
21:35:15 <timbl> can't be
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21:37:33 <timbl> Darn, the dile has been rewritte with that stupi quote agian.
21:42:35 <timbl> Now it won't return the file
21:44:36 <timbl> It will return other files
21:45:29 <timbl> Has multiple line problem
21:46:05 <presbrey> got the javascript callback working
21:46:07 <presbrey> http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state?callback=test
21:47:41 <timbl> Is that output a standard?
21:48:02 <presbrey> the JSON or the callback?
21:48:22 <presbrey> the callback is, maybe the json isnt
21:48:44 <presbrey> oh, no it should be indexed I think
21:48:46 <timbl> There is  a more friendly JSON Sandro has been discussing and I like where a string is just a string and  number just a number and node with a URI  just {uri: "htt..." }
21:48:51 <presbrey> json triples should be indexed s-p at least
21:49:48 <presbrey> yes it should really be more lispy
21:50:04 <presbrey> and how do you figure the @en into a literal?
21:50:16 <timbl> You don't
21:50:25 <timbl> Actually I was just olayng with Rhono
21:50:36 <presbrey> ok retry http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state?callback=test
21:50:42 <timbl> str = "chat"
21:50:48 <timbl> str.lang = "en"
21:51:06 <timbl> It would remember str.lang for a bit and then forget it
21:51:40 <timbl> like if I tried to put on     str.toNT = function(){...}  then it would drop the lang ..
21:51:43 <presbrey> gbot46, ?
21:51:44 <gbot46> nothing known about
21:51:46 <presbrey> gbot46, help?
21:51:49 <gbot46> nothing known about help
21:51:52 <presbrey> who is gbot46 ?
21:52:13 <presbrey> gbot46, presbrey?
21:52:13 <gbot46> nothing known about presbrey
21:52:16 <presbrey> ouch
21:52:51 <timbl> gbot?
21:53:05 <timbl> gbot, help
21:53:14 <timbl> gbot, who are you?
21:53:22 <timbl> gbot, who is your daddy?
21:54:05 <timbl> from config.fsf.org
21:56:47 <presbrey> so chrome's accept header is application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5
21:56:57 <presbrey> I guess q=1.0 is assumed if none is given
21:57:18 <presbrey> wait is this a comma-delimited list?
21:57:34 <presbrey> no it must be semi-colon
21:57:53 <timbl> Yes, beware the comma is highest precedence
21:58:01 <timbl> comma is exactly like two headers
21:58:55 <presbrey> what q= do text/plain and image/png get?
21:59:48 <timbl> text/plain get 0.8
21:59:56 <timbl> split it first by comma
22:00:28 <timbl> In fact biking in I was thinking our code which turns thes einto RDF should make separat statments for each comma delimited bit
22:00:50 <timbl> Then the semicolon separate a content-type from the q param
22:00:58 <timbl> tThat is the rfc822 way
22:01:01 <presbrey> does image/png have no q= or 0.8 or 0.5?
22:01:23 <timbl> image/png has q=1
22:01:37 <timbl> any other junk has q=.5
22:01:39 <presbrey> ok
22:02:48 <timbl> We should kick gbot?
22:03:01 <presbrey> I don't know gbot46
22:03:09 <presbrey> its probably too late. all the data wiki secrets are exposed!
22:03:19 <timbl> oh nooooooooo!
22:04:17 <presbrey> im not doing any negotiation for you yet
22:04:22 <presbrey> only ?callback is done
22:04:55 <presbrey> yours makes the comma separation much more clear
22:04:58 <presbrey> application/rdf+xml, application/xhtml+xml;q=0.3, text/xml;q=0.2, application/xml;q=0.2, text/html;q=0.3, text/plain;q=0.1, text/n3;q=1.0, text/rdf+n3;q=1, application/x-turtle;q=1, text/turtle;q=1
22:05:58 <timbl> I love fixing the file, clicking one of the many red dots and seeingthem all go yellow for a moment then green :)
22:06:29 <presbrey> youre only doing GET though, are you fixing it on the server?
22:06:42 <timbl> yes
22:06:46 <timbl> emacs
22:07:00 <presbrey> oic
22:07:21 <timbl> Thanks for access to it .. thought it would be useful
22:07:49 <timbl> So we have to avoid quotes and newlines until Ericp is free
22:07:57 <presbrey> hehe yep
22:08:10 <presbrey> I could try but it will be so much better and faster if he does it
22:16:39 <presbrey> I guess these q= are float
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22:18:20 <timbl> There'll be a spec somewhere -- I wouldn't expect  an exponent    application/flash 1.0e-14
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22:19:00 <presbrey> for sorting in python
22:19:16 <presbrey> {'text/html': 0.90000000000000002, 'image/png': 0.0, 'application/xml': 0.0, '*/*': 0.5, 'text/plain': 0.80000000000000004, 'application/xhtml+xml': 0.0}
22:19:43 <presbrey> ouch those 0.0 are supposed to be 1.0
22:20:06 <presbrey> ok fixed {'text/html': 0.90000000000000002, 'image/png': 1.0, 'application/xml': 1.0, '*/*': 0.5, 'text/plain': 0.80000000000000004, 'application/xhtml+xml': 1.0}
22:20:10 <presbrey> I guess I could just 100x them all
22:20:19 <presbrey> figuring no one is using q=0.001
22:20:42 <presbrey> doesn't matter much, python can sort floats just fine
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22:35:08 <presbrey> timbl, whats the content_type for ntriples?
22:35:34 <timbl> dunno good q
22:35:46 <timbl> I have not pushed that one. Might not be regs
22:35:55 <timbl> but should say in the netriples spec
22:36:03 <timbl> ericp is here
22:40:08 <presbrey> muahahahaha
22:42:45 <presbrey> curl -v http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state -H 'Accept: application/rdf+xml'
22:42:49 <presbrey> works now
22:49:07 <presbrey> also curl -v http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state -H 'Accept: application/rdf+xml;q=0.5,text/turtle;q=0.6'
22:49:12 <presbrey>  vs. curl -v http://dig.xvm.mit.edu/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state -H 'Accept: application/rdf+xml;q=0.7,text/turtle;q=0.6'
22:49:16 <timbl> converting on the fly?
22:49:54 <presbrey> yes
22:50:05 <presbrey> r29529
22:50:18 <timbl> cool
22:50:32 <timbl> very friendly.  
22:50:40 <timbl> W3c standards even :)
22:51:09 <timbl> coneg is a great way of avoiding conflict and user upset
22:51:26 <presbrey> it will end up hiding parse errors
22:51:32 <presbrey> from bad serializations
22:51:42 <presbrey> raptor library is lenient and will try to skip malformed triples
22:51:47 <timbl> You mean unused code will rot?
22:52:01 <presbrey> no I mean tabulator will get back valid turtle now
22:52:03 <timbl> hiding parse errors in data bad
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22:52:29 <presbrey> if it says accept: text/turtle, the negotiate will cause a reserialize and the bad triples will get dropped
22:52:47 <presbrey> all you guys have fios!?! I'm so jealous
22:53:30 <timbl> :) You will have google soon maybe
22:53:41 <ericP> if' you're very very good
22:54:21 <timbl> ok, /me impressed by the conversion on the fly
22:56:37 <presbrey> bye timbl 
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