IRC log of dig on 2010-12-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

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16:33:29 [timbl]
Web Turing Complete : Not just turing complete -- the set of things which can be figured out by a turing machine with an infinite tape and a web browser ;-)
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17:36:36 [melvster]
that assumes that the universe is infinite, a theory which i subscribe to
17:37:03 [melvster]
infinite or infinitely divisible
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18:15:54 [presbrey]
I configured *.data.fm as a virtual host of rdf.me with a wildcard certificate
18:16:08 [presbrey]
that way you can use it with browsers+curl without warnings, eg:
18:16:15 [presbrey]
~]$ curl https://presbrey.data.fm/test
18:16:15 [presbrey]
@prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> .
18:17:41 [webr3]
nice one presbrey :)
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18:51:17 [melvster]
yay
18:52:40 [melvster]
im creating a game world in RDF ... I think ill extend some of the locations to be on data.fm
18:53:11 [melvster]
perhaps some kind of world in space
19:16:33 [presbrey]
cool. you should put each location in its own graph
19:17:01 [presbrey]
I am thinking of adding sqlite backend support so I don't have to keep saying that
19:17:34 [presbrey]
but I'll need some help from ericP to avoid breaking sparql update
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19:52:16 [ericP]
i prefer to think of myself as confounding than as helping
19:52:24 [ericP]
(presbrey)
19:55:09 [presbrey]
ha. you are definitely helping... defeat the great reparse+reserialize overhead dragon
19:56:32 [presbrey]
possibly confounding my understanding of C++
20:00:14 [danbri]
melvster, game world sounds cool :)
20:00:15 [amy]
:)
20:01:24 [danbri]
melvster http://sourceforge.net/projects/logicmoo/ might be of interest (tho i think abandoned). Xerox MOO is cool though, very rdfy data model
20:01:38 [danbri]
http://ilrt.org/discovery/2001/03/rdf-moo/ compares
20:01:51 [melvster]
ooh cool
20:02:09 [danbri]
also http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~grimnes/2006/03/RDFRoom/ is just mad
20:02:26 [danbri]
so MOO server is basically a giant object graph, with scripts and events
20:02:54 [melvster]
so far ive done a file based version
20:02:59 [melvster]
we're starting out with locations got a few done here .... http://drogon.me/
20:03:11 [danbri]
and it had external stuff attached via cool hacks like Larry Masinter's Moo/Gopher bridge, http://mirrors.ccs.neu.edu/MOO/papers/MOOGopher.html
20:03:12 [melvster]
you can walk from location to location, and even to other servers, like toby's
20:03:22 [danbri]
nice!
20:03:25 [melvster]
next ill add players, items and agents, then an economy
20:03:38 [melvster]
economy for virtual points etc.
20:03:51 [danbri]
pseudopolis looks a lot like prague
20:03:55 [melvster]
lol
20:03:58 [melvster]
yeah
20:04:10 [melvster]
if you can find a better town square, just sparql update it ... :)
20:04:26 [danbri]
ok so the model in MOO was that each locations exits were themselves modeled entities
20:04:26 [melvster]
but the economy should be sophisticated enough to handle digital cash, checks, contracts, micropayments etc.
20:04:44 [danbri]
so if p1 is that square, then it would have a northern exit as an associated object, if i remember right
20:04:51 [melvster]
im going for the one page per entity kind of model
20:04:55 [danbri]
azaroth from #swig sometimes knows this stuff inside out
20:04:59 [melvster]
then have a web of trusted agents
20:05:34 [melvster]
instead of middleware ill have an agent called the 'dugeon master' which is trusted to update pages
20:05:50 [danbri]
so each page url contains all the state for that place?
20:06:09 [melvster]
that's one way Ill model things, but you dont have to do it that way
20:06:23 [melvster]
but i think the client should be able to render things if you do it that way
20:06:27 [danbri]
best game i tried lately was glitch.com, really cute
20:08:12 [melvster]
looks very cool
20:09:10 [melvster]
game points levels awards and badges are very interesting
20:11:19 [danbri]
i think it'll be a big hit, nicely stylish
20:19:02 [melvster]
in theory we'll all be able to create game worlds and link them together
20:19:59 [melvster]
to begin with the game logic can be done manually, with world owners updating their files, but as we work out the interactions, we can use scripts to do that, or better still Agents that can be hosted anywhere and permissioned to update files
20:20:40 [melvster]
in that way, we can see a web of trust working in action
20:21:28 [melvster]
player <-> Agent <-> RDF Store
20:21:48 [melvster]
game owner <-> RDF Store
20:22:08 [melvster]
that's the theory anyway ...
20:24:10 [danbri]
good luck with it :) i'll keep an eye out for new stuff!
20:24:23 [melvster]
thx :)
20:24:58 [melvster]
im most interested in implementing a next gen. economy
20:25:07 [melvster]
based on: https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki
20:25:43 [melvster]
open transactions looks *awesome* ... i spoke to the creator too, and he's interested in making it interact with RDF, Web of Data and WebID
20:27:31 [danbri]
i had a quick look there, i guess via you sharing the link? lots to absorb...
20:28:31 [danbri]
(not that i really know what they are :)
20:28:31 [melvster]
why?
20:28:35 [melvster]
lol
20:28:51 [melvster]
credit default swaps are just risk of someone not paying
20:29:10 [danbri]
libby's got a phd and a couple other degrees in economics, i'll bug her
20:29:18 [melvster]
oh nice
20:29:25 [melvster]
it's very closely related to the Web of Trust actually
20:29:54 [melvster]
yeah we can do that soon :)
20:29:57 [danbri]
ie. a limited resource that everyone has, but which can be used in web karma activities
20:29:59 [danbri]
oh cool :)
20:30:12 [melvster]
people have a reputation
20:30:31 [melvster]
a reputation is based on observed and perceived behaviour
20:30:40 [melvster]
from a reputation you derive trust
20:30:46 [danbri]
ericp has a reputation for helpfulness, for ezzample
20:30:50 [melvster]
trust is a probability in the interval [0,1]
20:31:11 [melvster]
the (subjective) probability that you think an Agent will perform an action
20:31:13 [danbri]
are these contextualised?
20:31:23 [danbri]
eg by topic, zone of activity?
20:31:31 [melvster]
sure
20:31:58 [melvster]
so you might trust someone to fix your car, but not to look after your baby
20:32:36 [melvster]
but in the case of CDS it's the trust on whether a counter party will pay what they said they would
20:32:39 [danbri]
those are tasks, can we live with 'mere' general topics?
20:32:44 [danbri]
<http://id.loc.gov/authorities/sh85022846#concept>
20:32:48 [danbri]
for eg
20:33:22 [melvster]
now here's the problem with CDS
20:33:26 [danbri]
but then http://id.loc.gov/authorities/sh85023354#concept> is 'childcare', but skil/expertise in that as a scholarly topic, doesn't make someone safe to leave kids with
20:33:39 [melvster]
the repuations are modelled as very good, because these companies *always* paid
20:33:47 [melvster]
so trust is high
20:33:51 [melvster]
and risk is low
20:33:53 [melvster]
according to the model
20:34:17 [melvster]
but history does not always predict the future, it's just a model's assumption
20:34:49 [melvster]
so when the trust is modeled with invalid assumptions, the numbers change
20:35:09 [melvster]
and if the model as made those numbers tiny, they can explode to many multiples
20:36:01 [melvster]
given that we tend to work with large centralized trusted Agents, the damage from invalid models kind of explodes
20:36:18 [melvster]
it's not fault tolerant, like The Web
20:36:27 [mari-mami]
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20:36:47 [melvster]
but if we get some smart people to make good reforms, we can make the system more fault tolerant, and more stable
20:37:01 [melvster]
that's something we demo with a working web of trust
20:37:37 [melvster]
this is one reason FOAF is important, imho :)
20:41:05 [melvster]
very good paper on trust from MIT: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/lmui/docs/phddissertation.pdf
20:41:14 [melvster]
not dig i dont think ...
20:46:21 [danbri]
so i gotta run, but it would be great to take another look over http://openetherpad.org/fXuqiu8nem soon and see what can go into next FOAF rev
20:53:29 [melvster]
yes, will do!
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