IRC log of dig on 2011-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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16:17:18 [melvster]
presbrey: hi!
16:19:56 [presbrey]
hi melvster whats up?
16:20:51 [melvster]
just saying hello ... from next week I'll be able to spend all my time on sem web stuff ... i was wondering if you saw that post saying XHR PUT worked with same origin, but not cross origin?
16:21:34 [presbrey]
I think so but I did not follow well, didn't see a link URL or code example?
16:22:08 [presbrey]
is our CORS code bugged?
16:22:26 [melvster]
im not sure it may be firefox
16:22:38 [melvster]
basically there's some code you can use in js to create a file on data.fm
16:23:00 [melvster]
e.g.
16:23:01 [melvster]
xhr = new XMLHttpRequest();
16:23:01 [melvster]
xhr.open('PUT', 'https://melvincarvalho.data.fm/test5', false);
16:23:11 [melvster]
xhr.setRequestHeader('Content-Type', 'text/turtle; charset=UTF-8');
16:23:28 [melvster]
xhr.send('@prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22/rdf-syntax-ns#>.\n\n<#a> <#b> <#c>.');
16:23:43 [melvster]
that works in firefox if you're in the same origin
16:23:56 [melvster]
but not on cross origin ... was the gist of it
16:24:17 [melvster]
you can try it in firebug for example
16:24:34 [melvster]
DELETE also works nicely instead of PUT
16:24:51 [presbrey]
firefox bug?
16:25:18 [presbrey]
err. they'll probably say "feature"
16:25:41 [melvster]
quite possibly ... ill investigate further .... but it's got me thinking
16:26:01 [melvster]
the unhosted guys said, you can use oauth instead to get a token
16:26:13 [melvster]
but i was thinking about ACL in general
16:26:25 [melvster]
we have iirc read / write / control / append
16:26:38 [nunnun_away]
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16:27:17 [melvster]
but if you look at the common interaction today on the web, before you can do a WRITE, there's normally a confirmation dialogue
16:27:35 [melvster]
e.g. 'are you sure you want to post this to facebook' ... etc.
16:28:29 [melvster]
im wondering the best way to model that user experience (of course it's not such an issue for robots)
16:28:55 [melvster]
it all ties in with the cross origin read / write stuff i think ....
16:32:29 [presbrey]
hmm timbl when did you add http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/acl#Append ?
16:33:25 [presbrey]
oh nvm, acl.n3 Last-Modified: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 21:03:38 GMT
16:36:16 [presbrey]
yall should add mtime to http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/,access
16:41:59 [nunnun]
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16:56:30 [timbl]
presbrey, hi -- I have this HTML skin file which you can send instead of RDF to a non-rdf browser
16:56:39 [timbl]
it gives a tabulator-like view of the data, works with # URIs too
16:57:03 [timbl]
like http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card#i if you access it with safari say.
16:57:18 [timbl]
Data.fm could do the samething
16:58:29 [timbl]
Yes, append access is for things like dropboxes in intrays.
16:59:49 [melvster]
nice!
17:00:06 [nunnun]
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17:01:03 [timbl]
(append access or the skin?)
17:01:11 [melvster]
skin :)
17:01:48 [melvster]
timbl: i was pondering last night ... as well as the read / write and control interactions that we have (common in the unix world) ... i was wondering your thoughts on the concept of "write access with confirmation"
17:02:46 [melvster]
what I mean by this is: write to the following file, but ask for a confirmation first, this is a common pattern with human interaction on the web, e.g. facebook, before an app can post to your wall it pops up something allowing you to confirm or cancel ...
17:03:38 [melvster]
you can model this by putting an app in between the user and data storage area, or "trusted third party" giving you access, or perhaps another property in the ontology
17:03:45 [melvster]
I hope some of that made sense!
17:14:51 [melvster]
hi
17:15:03 [melvster]
not sure how well i phrased the above ....
17:15:26 [timbl]
so wtite with confirmation means confirmation by whom?
17:15:45 [melvster]
i think in this case it would be a human agent
17:16:09 [nunnun]
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17:16:32 [timbl]
One way to model this is like with friends on facebook, you put one lin in tosuggest somethig and the it is confirmed by another person writing the link
17:16:53 [timbl]
A append-only dropbox is useful there.
17:17:31 [melvster]
interesting
17:17:38 [timbl]
So the calendar app could write an event into your drob box, linking to a sensitive graph node.
17:17:59 [timbl]
Your software then asks whether you want to confirm the data, and if you do a link is mde from your data to it
17:18:03 [melvster]
so the drop box acts as a kind of notification queue?
17:18:10 [timbl]
yes.
17:18:24 [timbl]
like an inbox
17:18:28 [melvster]
yes that is a nice achitecture
17:18:31 [timbl]
or a input message queue.
17:18:49 [timbl]
The things aren't considered approved until yo have like dto em from storage only you control
17:19:52 [melvster]
so maybe you have a robot sitting between your inbox and your read/write cloud storage?
17:20:39 [melvster]
or you are redirected to your inbox for processing ...
17:21:47 [timbl]
Well, this is all in r/w cloud storage
17:21:53 [timbl]
the dropbix os part o fit.
17:22:02 [timbl]
Yes, you have lots of robots
17:22:16 [melvster]
ok that makes sense
17:23:56 [melvster]
i guess each robot will have a URI webid and public/private key pair
17:29:57 [melvster]
i could even have a bunch of them sitting on my local box on a subdomain ... they can be like my 'butlers' to the web :)
17:31:18 [manu-db]
sounds quite a bit like OAuth, right?
17:31:45 [melvster]
yes similar, but OAuth is trusted third party, right?
17:35:51 [melvster]
so I'm going to have a bunch of robots hosted from my local pc here ... http://robots.melvin.me/ /1 /2 /3 ... given them all WebIDs then allow them to work on my read write clouds
17:36:36 [melvster]
every now and then they'll check things like my message queues and see if anything needs processing
17:37:31 [melvster]
then I can access control them from one big foaf : group
18:20:30 [presbrey]
ps. https://github.com/presbrey/data.fm/
18:20:36 [presbrey]
github fork-ready
18:37:33 [melvster]
great!
18:40:36 [manu-db]
melvster: Sorry - had a meeting - OAuth covers authorizing a third party to do something on your behalf.
18:41:07 [manu-db]
but this could easily be "allow this write to occur." - but it would have to be done with you in the loop.
18:41:11 [melvster]
ah yes ... the unhosted guys are using oauth ... they've also been working on patches for data.fm
18:41:38 [manu-db]
So, if Google wanted to write some data to your WebID - they'd have to get your authorization first via OAuth.
18:41:57 [manu-db]
Then they could add whatever they wanted (based on the access privileges you gave them)
18:42:47 [manu-db]
/or/ you would have to verify each write in-line.
18:43:02 [manu-db]
the benefit of the "semantic inbox" would be not having to be in the loop
18:43:25 [manu-db]
but the down-side is that you have to authorize each data write request - and not many people care about managing that sort of stuff.
18:43:39 [manu-db]
(nor should they have to worry about managing that sort of stuff).
18:43:51 [presbrey]
more likely Google wants to host your profile and you write a seeAlso triple
18:43:52 [manu-db]
managing my inbox is difficult enough - I don't want a semantic inbox that I have to manage as well.
18:44:22 [manu-db]
yes, but that's you writing to Google, not Google writing to your personal data store, right?
18:44:26 [presbrey]
either way
18:44:35 [presbrey]
why let them write to your primary profile graph?
18:44:47 [presbrey]
let them write into another graph that you link to via seeAlso
18:44:51 [manu-db]
why not allow them to write to it?
18:45:02 [presbrey]
I wouldn't want them adding more keys
18:45:07 [manu-db]
(other than the obvious reasons - you don't trust them, they might corrupt data, etc)
18:45:16 [manu-db]
yes, but that has to do with ACL
18:45:28 [manu-db]
don't allow them to write keys - that's another privilege.
18:45:38 [manu-db]
but writing your Google+ stream as semantic data may be okay?
18:46:01 [presbrey]
sorry not just data keys, specifically webid / pki public keys
18:46:18 [manu-db]
plus, your semantic data store would have multiple graphs, wouldn't it? perhaps one per URL... so, you could tell Google - I want you to do all writes here: http://data.fm/presbrey/gplus ?
18:46:47 [presbrey]
sure that sounds fine
18:46:49 [manu-db]
and then you could link to that URL from your main profile?
18:46:59 [presbrey]
so why would I need to 'authorize each request' / down-side?
18:47:14 [manu-db]
and for that use case - OAuth (or something like it - WebID) would work quite well.
18:47:37 [presbrey]
I have lots of (sub) profile graphs
18:47:43 [manu-db]
presbrey: 'authorize each request' - are we talking about the semantic inbox use case?
18:49:00 [presbrey]
in any case I think we can agree the ACL onto needs some extension
18:49:29 [presbrey]
w/ OAuth directives, password (Basic/Digest) eg. htaccess, etc.
18:49:48 [melvster]
presbrey: did you see the sec ontology?
18:49:57 [presbrey]
FB calls it 'offline access' when you don't want to authorize each request
18:50:10 [presbrey]
no melvin, link?
18:50:46 [manu-db]
This is the one we're working on - http://payswarm.com/vocabs/security
18:51:08 [presbrey]
hmm interesting
18:51:32 [manu-db]
It's used here: http://payswarm.com/specs/source/web-api/
18:51:44 [manu-db]
Look at Section 4: Communication
18:52:20 [manu-db]
Section 4.7 should be the last section of Section 4.
18:52:41 [manu-db]
The sec ontology is used to encrypt/decrypt messages in the clear (over HTTP)
18:52:55 [manu-db]
(and to do digital signatures on messages - with resistance to replay attacks)
18:53:49 [manu-db]
We also define a mechanism that allows public keys to be registered - but specific to PaySwarm - it could be generalized, though.
18:54:09 [melvster]
that's the one ..
18:54:21 [melvster]
i think 'sec' is the prefix in prefix.cc
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18:55:09 [presbrey]
prefix.cc points to purl points to 404
18:55:36 [manu-db]
yes, the purl hasn't been approved yet - working on it!
18:57:53 [presbrey]
hmm security like admin are probably hard keywords to reserve
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19:05:49 [melvster]
github fork looks great ... i think ill try and run a local copy too
19:11:03 [presbrey]
you might need to fix php include_path
19:11:22 [presbrey]
let me know what other trouble you run into
19:12:04 [presbrey]
timbl also wants to run his own local fork
19:12:59 [melvster]
will do ...
19:22:45 [presbrey]
thanks :)
19:29:00 [timbl]
$ git checkout https://github.com/presbrey/data.fm.git
19:29:00 [timbl]
fatal: Not a git repository (or any of the parent directories): .git
19:29:23 [melvster]
try git clone
19:29:36 [melvster]
git clone https://github.com/presbrey/data.fm.git
19:30:28 [timbl]
works tx
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22:15:47 [timbl]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
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