IRC log of dig on 2012-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

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08:15:22 [deiu]
melvster, I'm trying to see what's going on with pingback on ODS
08:15:44 [melvster]
deiu: awesome!
08:15:44 [deiu]
that site has some usability issues
08:15:56 [melvster]
yeah it does ... they are going to put on a new GUI soon
08:16:06 [melvster]
maybe even some styles from yours :)
08:16:10 [deiu]
screw the UI
08:16:28 [deiu]
First of all, new users do not have a pingback:to relation
08:16:45 [deiu]
how can they receive pings? :)
08:16:55 [melvster]
ah ha ... yes that needs to be fixed ...
08:17:05 [melvster]
but i was going from kingsley's profile
08:17:39 [deiu]
I'm trying to send a message from ODS (using their UI) and I can't
08:17:49 [melvster]
rapper -g http://id.myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/KingsleyUyiIdehen | grep pingback
08:17:49 [melvster]
<http://id.myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/KingsleyUyiIdehen#this> <http://purl.org/net/pingback/service> <http://id.myopenlink.net/semping> .
08:17:49 [melvster]
<http://id.myopenlink.net/dataspace/person/KingsleyUyiIdehen#this> <http://purl.org/net/pingback/to> <http://id.myopenlink.net/semping/rest> .
08:17:51 [deiu]
I'm not sure if I have to do anything special first..
08:18:08 [melvster]
i used http://id.myopenlink.net/semping/rest
08:18:58 [deiu]
I get Error 22023
08:19:03 [deiu]
Source does not contains any relation to target
08:19:12 [deiu]
but I do have a relation
08:19:16 [melvster]
oic
08:19:27 [melvster]
i went from my own webid
08:19:31 [deiu]
also...why does it matter if I have a relation or not?
08:19:34 [melvster]
what source URI did you ues?
08:19:40 [deiu]
my account on ODS
08:20:03 [deiu]
I should be able to send pings to anyone at any time...
08:20:14 [melvster]
maybe i guess in the case of 'friendback' ie adding a friend, you want to see that you've been added first
08:20:32 [melvster]
but pingback can be a general messaging system if webid authenticated
08:20:33 [deiu]
yeah, but if I add you first, how can I let you know?
08:20:47 [melvster]
that's the idea of friendback
08:20:50 [melvster]
first i add you
08:20:52 [melvster]
then i notify you
08:20:56 [manu1]
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08:21:04 [deiu]
that's just an automated ping
08:21:29 [deiu]
it should "block" pings if there is no mutual relationship
08:21:44 [deiu]
s/should/shouldn't
08:22:14 [melvster]
true
08:22:26 [melvster]
well unless you want to stop spam
08:22:39 [deiu]
you can do rate limiting, etc...
08:23:08 [deiu]
it doesn't matter as long as the source must be authenticated
08:23:39 [deiu]
otherwise, I'm just going to use one of your friends' webid to spam you all day long :)
08:23:53 [deiu]
am I making any sense?
08:23:57 [melvster]
yes you are
08:24:34 [deiu]
on MyProfile everyone can send messages to anyone as long as they are authenticated
08:24:54 [deiu]
which makes it social
08:25:42 [melvster]
i guess there's 2 principles
08:25:54 [melvster]
1) authenticate when you send the message
08:26:07 [melvster]
2) look at the source of the message and follow your nose
08:26:22 [melvster]
(1) seems to be making most sense for this messaging use case
08:26:35 [deiu]
true, but 2) allows for more spam than 1)
08:27:06 [deiu]
if users have a "ignore Person" button, that will fix unsolicited messages
08:27:13 [melvster]
well there's a theory that you can go to the source and follow your nose to the message
08:27:56 [melvster]
so in case (1) the authentication happens on the wire
08:27:58 [deiu]
I wish we could CC Mikto into this
08:28:15 [melvster]
in case (2) the authentication happens later when you pick things up
08:28:25 [melvster]
but yes i think you're right
08:28:29 [deiu]
but there's no authentication in 1), afaics
08:28:45 [deiu]
you just check if there's a mutual relationship
08:28:47 [melvster]
so let's see if we can get the to switch it on
08:28:51 [melvster]
maybe it's a bug
08:29:14 [deiu]
yup
08:29:15 [melvster]
due to time zones the openlink people are probably asleep now
08:29:29 [melvster]
but maybe later today we can get them online ...
08:29:33 [deiu]
yeah, I got a huge backlog to take care of anyway :)
08:29:54 [melvster]
you're doing a great job!
08:30:10 [melvster]
i think checking the friend relation might not be a bad thing tho ...
08:30:14 [melvster]
in some cases
08:30:19 [melvster]
i agree it's not a spam killer
08:30:53 [melvster]
but my profile is looking excellent
08:30:57 [deiu]
thanks :)
08:31:07 [melvster]
it's getting close to what facebook can do now
08:31:24 [manu1]
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08:31:25 [melvster]
ie pubic / private / friends (circles)
08:31:35 [melvster]
we have an app platform
08:31:38 [melvster]
it's just hyperlinks
08:31:51 [melvster]
im looking at chat ...
08:31:59 [deiu]
melvster, are you still working on liAuthentication?
08:32:01 [melvster]
i have the site webid.im ... maybe i can make a chat app
08:32:52 [melvster]
deiu: i didnt do anything on libAuthentication in a long time ... actually i didnt program most of it ... i think some of the drupal guys have forked it ... scor will know
08:32:52 [deiu]
that would be really awesome
08:33:13 [melvster]
i think most people expect chat in a social net these days
08:33:20 [melvster]
so i can use something like jappix
08:33:32 [deiu]
my question really was, should I bother linking to the lib on github, or can I just take it as granted and manage things on my own
08:34:10 [melvster]
deiu: let me find the most current fork
08:35:14 [melvster]
hmm doesnt show on my graph .. ill ask the drupal people
08:35:19 [melvster]
probably worth linking it ...
08:35:35 [melvster]
one other thing we can almost do is payments
08:35:49 [deiu]
I hate that you have to specify the IdP certificate in one of the lib files
08:36:02 [melvster]
oh yeah, that's annoying
08:36:10 [melvster]
because we only had foafssl.org back then
08:36:29 [melvster]
and it didnt have public key we could fetch easily
08:36:33 [deiu]
I'll fork and do a pull request later then
08:36:52 [melvster]
ok cool, ill try and find out what the latest with the other forks is
08:37:03 [melvster]
ive been working on a system like pingback for payments
08:37:16 [melvster]
pinback has source, destination, comment
08:37:32 [melvster]
the web credits system has those + amount, currency, timestamp
08:37:45 [melvster]
in theory this should be enough for simple payments to get going
08:38:09 [melvster]
one advantage we have over things like facebook is that it's all distributed
08:38:28 [deiu]
actually, in theory you only need to check for pingback:Container, then depending on the application, you will have amount, currency, etc.
08:38:49 [melvster]
ah interesting ... ill look at the spec
08:38:49 [deiu]
even comment can be considered an "extra"
08:39:07 [melvster]
this is what Ive been working on : http://www.webcredits.org/
08:39:48 [deiu]
interesting
08:42:57 [melvster]
we have a whole group ... w3c payments ... lots of work going on there
08:45:01 [deiu]
I really hope this catches :)
08:45:37 [melvster]
takes time ... but it's a great way to do distributed banking
08:45:45 [splatte]
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08:45:50 [melvster]
and 100% integrates with my profile etc.
08:46:02 [deiu]
we'll see :)
08:46:08 [melvster]
:)
08:46:16 [melvster]
unhosted are doing an implementation too
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10:58:00 [deiu]
melvster, do you know of a template engine for PHP supporting linked data?
10:58:22 [melvster]
hmm good question ...
10:58:39 [melvster]
im not sure what the latest developments in that are are
10:58:48 [melvster]
there was fresnel long long ago
10:58:56 [melvster]
dont know if anyone took that up
10:59:18 [melvster]
there's lots of stuff that gets announced on the lod list from time to time
10:59:28 [melvster]
maybe one project or other has templating
10:59:32 [melvster]
or as a web service
10:59:51 [melvster]
so off the top of my head ... im not sure
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11:25:58 [deiu]
melvster, about your ping test to ODS, that error means that the service ran by ODS did not reply with a HTTP 200 status
11:26:12 [deiu]
(as per specs)
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13:55:25 [melvster]
deiu: thanks ... that's good to know ... ive sent out a mail to some of the ODS guys
13:55:34 [melvster]
try and get them onto IRC more often :)
14:08:44 [deiu]
that would be faster for debugging
14:08:56 [melvster]
yeah, definitely ..
14:09:29 [deiu]
I think I'll just drop libAuthentication
14:09:52 [deiu]
maybe I'll keep the parts that handle delegated auth
14:09:59 [melvster]
oh right i was about to ask scor about that .... looks like he's in here now ...
14:10:12 [melvster]
so are you going to use the apache modules?
14:10:36 [melvster]
scor: ^^ do you know if drupal has forked libAuthentication?
14:11:13 [deiu]
not sure yet, I still think it's easier for the lamda user to use an existing IdP than to configure authentication locally
14:11:28 [melvster]
definitely true
14:11:36 [deiu]
but for the sake of scalability I might add it in the future
14:11:56 [melvster]
so use a cookie after a successful login?
14:12:46 [deiu]
I do that now
14:12:54 [melvster]
ah right
14:13:33 [deiu]
but if the CIA wants to deploy MyProfile, they may not trust auth.my-profile.eu ;)
14:13:36 [melvster]
cookies are pretty fast, mind you so is the apache mod
14:13:45 [melvster]
lol
14:46:23 [deiu]
is there a way to add just a single dir as submodule on github?
14:46:51 [melvster]
ah yes
14:47:12 [melvster]
we do that all across tabulator
14:47:14 [deiu]
I just want to add the lib dir of a project
14:47:33 [melvster]
http://longair.net/blog/2010/06/02/git-submodules-explained/
14:47:41 [melvster]
this is a great post about it
14:48:05 [deiu]
thanks!
14:49:40 [deiu]
hmm, it doesn't say how to do it for a sub dir
14:51:26 [bblfish]
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14:51:40 [melvster]
"Add a new submodule to a repository" ?
14:52:17 [deiu]
no no, I want to add just the dir lib from an existing repo: someprojectname/lib/
14:52:32 [melvster]
oic
14:52:43 [melvster]
hmm that's maybe more tricky ...
14:52:51 [melvster]
not sure about that one
14:53:20 [deiu]
np
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18:50:36 [scor]
melvster: no, we don't have a fork
18:50:51 [scor]
we use whatever is out there? want to change the API?
18:51:31 [melvster]
scor: ah right thanks for letting me know ... no it's just that the version i have hasnt changed in ages ... wanted to know if there were any more recent updates ... that's good to know .. cc deiu
18:54:04 [melvster]
time to upgrade to the new ubuntu! :)
18:54:10 [deiu]
haha
18:54:15 [deiu]
already on it :)
18:54:59 [melvster]
nice ... any problems?
18:55:07 [deiu]
none so far
18:55:12 [deiu]
about half way through
18:55:15 [melvster]
yay, thanks!
18:55:41 [melvster]
maybe a good time to take a bath lol
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19:04:30 [deiu]
and it's done, time to reboot now :D
19:04:36 [melvster]
good luck!
19:04:44 [deiu]
SSDs are awesome
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19:21:26 [melvster]
welcome back! :)
19:21:37 [deiu]
thanks
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19:27:44 [github]
[data.fm] presbrey pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/lZmbLw
19:27:44 [github]
[data.fm/master] replace import_request_variables by extract to run also on PHP > 5.4.0 - Natanael Arndt
19:27:44 [github]
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20:43:16 [presbrey]
got some more domains for data.fm
20:43:26 [presbrey]
seenalso.{com,net}
20:43:52 [melvster]
oh cool!
20:44:10 [presbrey]
or perhaps I can install my-profile on the .com
20:44:31 [presbrey]
and .net for the lockers
20:44:48 [melvster]
could be kind of cool
20:45:49 [deiu]
hmm...did you get them through a special offer?
20:46:32 [deiu]
ah btw presbrey, do you know of a theming engine in PHP which also supports linked data?
20:47:01 [presbrey]
yes finished out my cart
20:48:46 [presbrey]
not familiar with any published
20:48:57 [presbrey]
LD theme engines, what are you looking for?
20:49:15 [presbrey]
eg. http://presbrey.seenalso.net/.json-ld
20:49:42 [presbrey]
only problem with my-profile running on my data.fm server is that it requires mysql
20:50:12 [presbrey]
mysql costs extra on amazon EC2 // RDS
20:50:41 [presbrey]
mysql shouldn't be necessary anyway with proper webscale decentralization
20:51:02 [melvster]
i forgot about this http://code.google.com/p/moriarty/source/browse/trunk/graphpath.class.php
20:52:10 [melvster]
some replies here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2010Feb/0003.html
20:53:24 [presbrey]
but dont you want a theme language in JS do you can just send the data?
20:53:40 [deiu]
I'll look into that
20:53:54 [deiu]
but yeah, switching to js would be nice
20:54:35 [deiu]
I'm also looking into using unhosted (remoteStorage) instead of mysql
20:55:13 [deiu]
right now I'm just cleaning up code / fixing bugs to reach a "stable" version
20:55:26 [deiu]
Natanael is helping me a lot
20:55:36 [melvster]
oh cool
20:56:36 [presbrey]
I think we should just advertise our public/comments and personal/inbox message URLs in our foaf profiles
20:57:05 [melvster]
deiu: i help out with unhosted ... currently it doesnt support http uri's, only user@host ... but im working trying to explain the benefits of using URIs :)
20:57:15 [presbrey]
whats the point of adding another discovery layer when I already define other data directly in my profile?
20:57:30 [presbrey]
plus with remoteStorage you cant see linked-data, only octet blobs
20:58:06 [presbrey]
so all your users lose battery on extra marshalling
20:58:15 [deiu]
I still haven't thoroughly looked at it
20:58:47 [deiu]
the base idea isn't bad though
20:58:59 [melvster]
yes, still a young project, hopefully it will all converge
20:59:02 [deiu]
I should have the option to define where to store my data
20:59:24 [melvster]
yes that's key
20:59:31 [presbrey]
my-project should extend foaf with the missing social networking components
20:59:45 [presbrey]
foaf:inbox, foaf:wall, foaf:comments, etc. should all be definable in your profile
20:59:45 [deiu]
I wonder :)
20:59:56 [presbrey]
oops I mean my-profile :P
21:00:08 [deiu]
schema.org might be interesting then
21:00:35 [deiu]
given that a lot of "big" players are involved
21:00:49 [deiu]
it would help with interoperability
21:01:39 [melvster]
yes danbri is there too :)
21:02:14 [deiu]
yeah exactly
21:04:42 [presbrey]
what schema is currently used for messaging on my-profile?
21:05:02 [melvster]
pingback
21:05:19 [melvster]
http://www.w3.org/wiki/Pingback
21:05:28 [deiu]
none, sending/receiving through pingback and storing through a local mysql db
21:05:54 [deiu]
all messages should be stored as linked data
21:06:01 [deiu]
at least that's what I'm aiming for
21:06:27 [melvster]
pingback is kind of webby ... to / from / comment
21:06:31 [deiu]
but that's not yet available due to current lack of access control
21:07:14 [deiu]
I'm working on a feature to export the profile along with messages (using SIOC)
21:08:29 [presbrey]
I thought clients would post linked data to the foaf:incoming URL
21:08:46 [presbrey]
can we use the access controls already on data.fm?
21:09:22 [kennyluck]
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21:10:06 [deiu]
no idea really
21:11:10 [deiu]
I'm talking with Sebastian Tramp (from AKSW) to pass the "application" and "session" layers of MyProfile to his team
21:11:26 [deiu]
I'd like to work on a privacy reasoning engine
21:13:44 [deiu]
hmm, I can't get unity to show the xchat tray icon
21:16:39 [deiu]
anyway, I'm off for a while (leaving for Germany tomorrow)
21:16:58 [melvster]
great, have a safe trip!
21:17:07 [melvster]
my ubuntu ... is almost there ... :)
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