IRC log of dig on 2012-09-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- topic is: Decentralized Information Group @ MIT http://dig.csail.mit.edu/
- 11:21:02 [pratchett.freenode.net]
- Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS melvster danbri_ deiu Pipian-Work kennyluck rszeno timbl tyteen4a03 dsheets presbrey betehess mattl bergi_ trueg_away manu1 amy Yudai bblfish manu-db ericP sandro
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- 12:59:54 [bblfish]
- timbl: here is an interesting discussion on WebID group showing how Google Security guru Ben Laurie is having trouble with WebID because of trouble he has seeing how a UI improvement can solve the privacy problem he thinks must exist http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Sep/0076.html
- 13:04:53 [bblfish]
- This is a clear illustration of how WebID solves a cross disciplinary problem, that the specialists of the domains never quite understand. Here Ben cannot see that a UI improvement solves a privacy problem
- 13:31:07 [mhausenblas]
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- 13:32:28 [mhausenblas]
- timbl around?
- 13:43:29 [bblfish]
- mhausenblas: we now have a room for RWW+WebID+SocialWEb at TPAC
- 13:43:52 [mhausenblas]
- very good, bblfish!
- 13:44:36 [timbl]
- hi mhausenblas
- 13:44:37 [bblfish]
- more here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Sep/0095.html
- 13:44:49 [mhausenblas]
- tx, bblfish
- 13:44:52 [mhausenblas]
- hi timbl
- 13:45:12 [timbl]
- Prebrey? I think there is anoth problem with tabulator.org code … not accepting INSERT DATA
- 13:45:20 [timbl]
- probably only the old INSERT
- 13:45:47 [mhausenblas]
- timbl, did you have a chance to look at the rather rudimentary OData - RDF white paper draft, yet?
- 13:48:58 [danbri__]
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- 13:49:01 [timbl]
- In what way is not not
- 13:49:08 [timbl]
- LDP compliant?
- 13:49:24 [mhausenblas]
- for example the concept of a container, timbl?
- 13:49:27 [timbl]
- s/not not/not/
- 13:49:40 [mhausenblas]
- but I might miss details? been a while since I looked at the code
- 13:51:13 [timbl]
- Hmmm
- 13:51:30 [timbl]
- Yes, there is no implementation of LDP containers
- 13:51:33 [timbl]
- in tabulator.
- 13:51:41 [timbl]
- It does display RDF collections.
- 13:51:50 [mhausenblas]
- http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldbp.html#basic-profile-container
- 13:51:54 [mhausenblas]
- to be more precise
- 13:51:55 [mhausenblas]
- right
- 13:52:04 [mhausenblas]
- could be aligned AFAICT
- 13:52:21 [mhausenblas]
- now, as you've kindly approved RDB2RDF, timbl, I've got some cycles to edit LDP :)
- 13:54:47 [timbl]
- :)
- 13:55:11 [timbl]
- I am thinking how tabulator would use containers.
- 13:55:31 [timbl]
- One thing is if it comes across one, using some nice UI to display and edit it.
- 13:55:47 [mhausenblas]
- indeed
- 13:55:59 [timbl]
- Another is using it in lace of extingthings .. like maybe a form for example has a set of fields, and it could have a container of fields.
- 13:56:05 [mhausenblas]
- this is something I think I can help with - UI/UX
- 13:56:08 [timbl]
- Or it could be declared a container
- 13:56:33 [mhausenblas]
- well, I guess a generic add/remove/list interface for container stuff would help?
- 13:57:11 [timbl]
- At the moment, tabulator just reads and writes triples to documents
- 13:57:44 [timbl]
- I don't see a value in adding different more complicated network operations, like POST to a container, to get the effect it can get just writing tripels
- 13:58:06 [mhausenblas]
- hmm
- 13:58:16 [mhausenblas]
- so, you don't think LDP makes sense?
- 13:58:17 [timbl]
- Yes, san internal API for adding and removing rings form containers would be maybe useful
- 13:58:23 [mhausenblas]
- ah
- 13:58:24 [mhausenblas]
- ok
- 13:58:53 [mhausenblas]
- well, but there are a number of use cases where you really want to treat a bunch of triples as a unit
- 13:59:01 [mhausenblas]
- you can call it graphs or containers
- 13:59:07 [mhausenblas]
- what counts are the semantics
- 13:59:12 [mhausenblas]
- sigh. there we go again ;)
- 13:59:40 [timbl]
- Hang on,
- 14:00:00 [timbl]
- I am not comparing graph documents with containers at all
- 14:00:02 [mhausenblas]
- so, while you can do things on a triple-level, I see it as a sort of syntactic sugar and convenience operational interface
- 14:00:07 [mhausenblas]
- but I do :)
- 14:00:15 [mhausenblas]
- sorta trying to be pragmatic
- 14:00:20 [timbl]
- tabulator and LDP are identical in the way they vbaically read and write triples in graphs
- 14:00:45 [timbl]
- LDP has eom extra functionality like ?non-member-properties which tabulator does;t use
- 14:01:07 [mhausenblas]
- but there is no notion of container in Tab, or?
- 14:01:41 [timbl]
- Tabulator does know about lists
- 14:01:58 [timbl]
- It displays them nicely
- 14:02:17 [timbl]
- It could do the same with a Container
- 14:02:39 [mhausenblas]
- hang on - you're talking UI now, or?
- 14:02:53 [timbl]
- But Tabulator uses POST not PATCH
- 14:03:03 [mhausenblas]
- I mean in terms of SPARQL Update <-> LDP/REST
- 14:03:07 [mhausenblas]
- right
- 14:03:18 [timbl]
- tabulator is a UI
- 14:03:30 [timbl]
- It uses rdflib.js
- 14:03:48 [timbl]
- and rdflib.js att the moment does not do PATCH it does POST
- 14:03:49 [mhausenblas]
- sure, but there is an interaction with datasources, right?
- 14:04:00 [timbl]
- ?
- 14:04:09 [mhausenblas]
- so I talk with Antonio then ...
- 14:04:13 [timbl]
- What do you mean there is an interaction with datasources
- 14:04:57 [mhausenblas]
- well, adding and removing triples?
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- 14:07:07 [timbl]
- Yes, when a data source is editable, usesr can change the data and create new stud and the tabulator writes and modified triples in the data surges rdf documents).
- 14:07:17 [timbl]
- data sources (rdf documents)
- 14:08:22 [timbl]
- If you were going to make a patch, it would be to sparqlUpdate.js where currently it recognizes two protocols for modifying data, WEBDAV and SPARQL updates using POST.
- 14:08:44 [mhausenblas]
- sounds like a plan
- 14:08:50 [timbl]
- You could add BPR to that, triggering it off the "Allow: PATCH" header
- 14:09:32 [timbl]
- where currently the value is derives from the MS-Author-Via: header
- 14:09:33 [mhausenblas]
- interesting. gotta think about that one
- 14:12:12 [timbl]
- Interesting: dcterms:description rdf:XMLLiteral Descriptive text about the resource represented as rich text in XHTML format. should include only content that is valid and suitable inside an XHTML <div> element.
- 14:12:42 [timbl]
- Would be great improvement to allow embedded HTML like that in fields in tabulator.
- 14:12:49 [timbl]
- i think it is in the todo list
- 14:13:14 [mhausenblas]
- cool
- 14:16:25 [timbl]
- Can't find it … would out it in except the data wikji is still nroken
- 14:16:32 [timbl]
- wiki is still broken
- 14:16:39 [timbl]
- The error is different now
- 14:17:01 [timbl]
- Error: can't save new issue:Could not properly handle "INSERT DATA { <http://tabulato"
- 14:17:29 [timbl]
- The version of sparql update on the server may be old
- 14:18:12 [timbl]
- The problem with eating your own dogwood is that you can't register a bug that the bug trcker is broken :-)
- 14:19:39 [mhausenblas]
- ok - see ya later timbl and thanks for your time :)
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- 15:10:24 [bblfish]
- back to programming finally...
- 15:20:23 [danbri]
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- 15:29:37 [presbrey]
- have found a working pattern
- 15:29:44 [presbrey]
- curl -H 'Content-Type: application/sparql-query' -d 'INSERT INTO <> { <needs> <more> <tests> }' http://tabulator.org/test1
- 15:31:03 [presbrey]
- the 'INTO <>' vs. DATA is an issue for tabulator and semsol's ARC2
- 15:31:50 [presbrey]
- we have inlined the parser so a local patch is fine, semsol has stopped developing arc2 I think
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- [data.fm] presbrey pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/bVJKpw
- 15:59:56 [GitHub85]
- [data.fm/master] Makefile: add check-syntax target - joe
- 15:59:56 [GitHub85]
- [data.fm/master] ARC2: add MIT SPARQL parser - joe
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- 16:01:09 [presbrey]
- ok timbl try that INSERT DATA again now
- 16:02:43 [trueg]
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- 16:12:04 [scor]
- presbrey: yes, unfortunately bengee is not very active on ARC2 anymore. have you looked at some other PHP libs? EasyRDF is pretty active afaik. there is also graphite
- 16:14:07 [presbrey]
- easyrdf only does SELECT, not INSERT
- 16:31:01 [bblfish]
- betehess: updated rww-play to latest banana https://github.com/read-write-web/rww-play
- 16:31:14 [bblfish]
- should add licence next
- 16:40:04 [bblfish]
- then I'll be able to implement lod
- 16:40:09 [bblfish]
- ldp I mean
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- 17:34:25 [melvster]
- presbrey: MITSPARQL .. nice! :)
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- 17:35:16 [melvster]
- i should start dogfooding tabulator too ...
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- 17:43:03 [presbrey]
- does anyone in the group need a TA?
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- 18:31:16 [melvster]
- presbrey: do you currently use tabulator with firefox or chrome?
- 18:33:21 [presbrey]
- been using chromium recently for console debugger
- 18:33:45 [presbrey]
- tho we want more of it eg. rdflib.js to work in node too
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- 18:36:34 [melvster]
- true
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- 18:53:22 [timbl]
- Hi presbrey
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- 18:54:16 [timbl]
- Will someone find Pipian-work's machine and check what is up with it?
- 18:54:39 [timbl]
- (Ian, are you around?)
- 18:54:46 [Pipian-Work]
- The new Retina MacBook Pro does not play nice with 802.11g/n networks :-/
- 18:55:19 [Pipian-Work]
- TCP stack seems to have issues or something. Not entirely sure.
- 18:55:59 [danbri]
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- (Still trying to figure out the issue at the moment)
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- 18:56:48 [timbl]
- ah
- 18:57:28 [presbrey]
- hi
- 18:57:36 [presbrey]
- my retina works fine
- 18:58:05 [Pipian-Work]
- I've had a devil of a time with both CSAILPrivate and MIT SECURE N
- 18:58:21 [presbrey]
- oh I dont use those :)
- 18:58:36 [Pipian-Work]
- Yeah, I'm not sure if it's actually something at the 802.1x layer
- 18:59:06 [Pipian-Work]
- But behavior on CSAILPrivate is weird because after a while, TCP connections will die
- 18:59:12 [Pipian-Work]
- But ICMP (pings) still work.
- 18:59:46 [Pipian-Work]
- All of the MIT networks were kicking me off every minute last night, which may have more to do with the g/n thing.
- 19:00:17 [Pipian-Work]
- (Actively disassociating, which is different from how CSAILPrivate behaves, which is more of a "timeout after a while" sort of thing)
- 19:01:05 [Pipian-Work]
- Of course now CSAILPrivate seems to be behaving (it wasn't earlier) so I'm not really sure what's up.
- 19:01:58 [presbrey]
- timbl, your INSERT should work now
- 19:02:27 [presbrey]
- I added the INSERT DATA syntax into the SPARQL parser
- 19:03:25 [timbl]
- Ah
- 19:03:28 [timbl]
- that seems better
- 19:04:52 [timbl]
- pop,s it took one mod but now
- 19:04:53 [timbl]
- Error (while saving change to http://tabulator.org/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state">http://tabulator.org/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state): Could not properly handle "DATA { <http://tabulator.org/w"
- 19:07:14 [presbrey]
- just restarted the server incase some parsers were running old code
- 19:07:33 [danbri]
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- 19:08:04 [presbrey]
- my new test case is:
- 19:08:23 [presbrey]
- $ curl -H 'Content-Type: application/sparql-query' -d 'INSERT DATA { <needs> <more> <tests> }' http://tabulator.org/test
- 19:09:07 [presbrey]
- if you can get the failing query, I am happy to add another test case and fix
- 19:12:20 [presbrey]
- I'll open up tabulator and try to find it too
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- 19:21:38 [melvster]
- nice ... my tabulator chrome skin is still work ... it's nice how lightweight that is
- 19:22:35 [melvster]
- I should do a RWW blog post to show people how to install it and edit data ..
- 19:24:37 [timbl]
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- 19:31:04 [melvster]
- presbrey: ive installed nodeunit ... do I just run 'Make' to run the test or is there a setup?
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- 19:51:50 [presbrey]
- yes run make in the makefile dir
- 19:51:59 [presbrey]
- melvster
- 19:52:35 [tyteen4a03]
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- 20:01:16 [melvster]
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- 20:02:49 [melvster]
- presbrey: thanks ... i think I may be missing a setup file?
- 20:03:06 [danbri]
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- 20:03:33 [melvster]
- i see read write acl in /tests/
- 20:03:52 [melvster]
- ah it's in node_modules
- 20:05:05 [melvster]
- i get : http://pastebin.com/1rxvVUsN
- 20:10:49 [timbl]
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- 20:12:22 [timbl]
- If you go in tabulator to the tracker ..
- 20:12:27 [timbl]
- Hmmm I managed to add http://tabulator.org/wiki/tabulator/tracker/state#Iss1348686197856
- 20:12:36 [timbl]
- with its t title "try this"
- 20:13:09 [timbl]
- but another attempt failed
- 20:13:21 [tyteen4a03]
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- 20:13:35 [timbl]
- maybe something strange in the string
- 20:17:23 [timbl]
- Ah, looks like stg in tbhe parsing or maybe encoding in the outgoing message, if I try to store a string which included the error message.
- 20:21:08 [Pipian-Work]
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- 20:26:01 [timbl]
- I can add messages to the bug
- 20:26:19 [timbl]
- I can't change its contents
- 20:26:28 [timbl]
- Ah. Contents changing will involve DELETE
- 20:26:37 [timbl]
- .. INSERT DATA
- 20:26:44 [timbl]
- maybe there is a syntax issue there
- 20:26:50 [mhausenblas]
- good evening
- 20:27:11 [mhausenblas]
- https://tent.is/ looks promising
- 20:27:14 [timbl]
- Where are you just now, mh?
- 20:27:25 [mhausenblas]
- @home. Galway
- 20:27:33 [timbl]
- What is Tent?
- 20:27:48 [mhausenblas]
- next week in Tamperer though - http://www.w3c.tut.fi/events/2012/1003-techday/
- 20:27:54 [mhausenblas]
- sorta distributed Twitter
- 20:28:08 [mhausenblas]
- AKA Diaspora delivered ;)
- 20:28:14 [mhausenblas]
- AFAICT
- 20:28:25 [mhausenblas]
- quite Webby, though ...
- 20:29:07 [mhausenblas]
- btw, timbl - for my W3C talk next week - any hints? any input? anything worth mentioning from your corner of the Web. ahm, I mean DIG ...
- 20:29:52 [mhausenblas]
- s/Tamperer/Tampere
- 20:30:29 [mhausenblas]
- presbrey, hope the pointers where helpful?
- 20:30:57 [presbrey]
- yes thx mhausenblas, still looking through everything you sent. great stuff!
- 20:31:18 [mhausenblas]
- cheers
- 20:31:31 [mhausenblas]
- just the stuff OTTOMH
- 20:32:11 [danbri]
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- 20:35:15 [bblfish]
- the conversation with Ben Laurie of Google security summarised http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Sep/0093.html
- 20:35:45 [mhausenblas]
- …ooOOO(the later the evening the more prominent the guests ;) … hi danbri, hi bblfish
- 20:36:29 [bblfish]
- hi
- 20:37:23 [mhausenblas]
- ok, guess this means /me back to writing the OData - RDF whitepaper, then :D
- 20:37:32 [mhausenblas]
- cya folks
- 20:40:41 [melvster1]
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- 20:41:25 [mhausenblas]
- :P
- 20:41:27 [danbri]
- http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/tls-1.pdf looks interesting btw
- 20:41:37 [mhausenblas]
- but danbri is modest, you have to admit
- 20:42:02 [mhausenblas]
- melvster1, what's your tent.is handle?
- 20:43:08 [mhausenblas]
- LOL
- 20:43:13 [melvster]
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