IRC log of dig on 2012-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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14:50:44 [bblfish]
just discovered that Ben Laurie has a wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Laurie
14:52:40 [bblfish]
that's been a long discussion on the WebID group with him. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Sep/thread.html
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[rwt.js] presbrey pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/yhQNKw
14:59:59 [GitHub185]
[rwt.js/master] node: update to v0.8.10 (http.response.on()) - joe
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15:00:32 [presbrey]
melvster, tests should work now. had to fix some rot vs. nodejs
15:00:50 [melvster]
presbrey: awesome, thanks!
15:01:25 [melvster]
bblfish: ben laurie is a famous security pro and also web payments expert
15:03:55 [bblfish]
yes that is what the wiki page says. He is very big in TLS and did the apache ssl implementation... But sometimes peopel with very deep knowledge in one area can find it very difficult to emerge in another area. I'd say 2 weaknesses seem to be UI and no knowledge of linked data.
15:04:19 [bblfish]
...for understanding the point of WebID at least.
15:04:44 [bblfish]
still he's paying attention... I am not sure competely were we fail to convince him.
15:04:48 [presbrey]
his capabilities comments have some merit, but does not exclude webid
15:05:14 [melvster]
i guess he'll be working alongside danbri soon :)
15:05:33 [presbrey]
mit is distributing a paper on capabilities in current security coursework
15:05:37 [presbrey]
http://css.csail.mit.edu/6.858/2012/readings/capsicum.pdf
15:05:54 [timbl]
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15:07:26 [melvster]
looks cool!
15:08:05 [Pipian-Work]
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15:08:08 [bblfish]
presbrey: can you respond to the capabilities thread with a pointer to that paper, and a short ( or longer ) explanation of why in your view that does not apply to WebID or does not exclude it?
15:08:14 [bblfish]
That would be super useful
15:09:14 [bblfish]
that would be useful because Dan Conolly had brought that up too
15:11:53 [timbl]
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15:13:06 [rszeno]
why do you think it doesn't apply to webid?
15:14:09 [bblfish]
presbrey: if mit has online video courses on that also add that. Would be useful for me to learn about that too.
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15:28:12 [bblfish]
timbl: I wonder if MIT should help you put together an online course on RDF. Martin Odersky has clearly been helped a lot in his online course on Scala https://class.coursera.org/progfun-2012-001/lecture/index
15:28:56 [bblfish]
"Functional Programming Principles in Scala" is the course. It is interesting to see the techniques used there.
15:33:13 [danbri]
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15:38:26 [danbri]
I don't expect my work will bring me much into contact w/ ben laurie, initially at least
15:38:49 [danbri]
but he's very bright, I'd take his comments on webid v seriously
15:40:11 [danbri]
oh, maybe he's actually in london, that would be cool
15:41:45 [bblfish]
well perhaps you can turn things around and argue that he should take webid seriously
15:42:35 [bblfish]
he is at least taking time to discuss, but one does not get the feeling that he has read the spec carefully or seen the videos.
15:42:56 [bblfish]
( it may also be that there are things to fill out in the spec )
15:44:09 [bblfish]
In any case we have taken his arguments very seriously. I have been answering them for a whole day now.
15:44:22 [bblfish]
( And have in the past on private mailing lists in Google )
15:44:45 [bblfish]
but I don't really see an argument that stands much water.
15:45:08 [bblfish]
there is the capabilities angle that hopefully presbrey can help us with
15:48:21 [presbrey]
the confused deputy thing is a big issue with the IdP/redirect thing
15:48:42 [presbrey]
but no more so than w/ openid, or any other delegator
15:49:21 [presbrey]
its always an issue but at least with webid, the confusion is decentralized :)
15:49:33 [bblfish]
:-) I like that
15:49:36 [presbrey]
if every deputy is authenticating on its own (no IdP)
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15:56:45 [presbrey]
melvster, did you get a chance to pull the fixes to read-write-tests.js ?
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15:57:42 [melvster]
presbrey: as it happens my desktop blew up yesterday so im reinstalling a bunch of stuff on my laptop ... but im keen to check it out shortly!
15:58:15 [presbrey]
oh boy sry! what blew?
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15:58:55 [melvster]
presbrey: not sure either the drive memory or cpu ... it gets stuck around the bios .. but no big deal ... ive started from scratch so many times now ... each time i get a bit better at it :D
15:59:31 [melvster]
i have my webid safe, tho!
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16:02:48 [bblfish]
:-) I think the question to ask Ben would be if he can describe a situation of useage of WebID where not having capabilities are problematic
16:02:58 [daniela]
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16:03:07 [bblfish]
because otherwise it is probably going to be a bit like fighting agaisnt shadows
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16:07:09 [presbrey]
I think a certificate private key is analogous to the opaque token in capabilities
16:08:28 [presbrey]
so perhaps all that we require to comply is to always generate a new key to issue the server when delegating authority to something we own
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16:09:08 [presbrey]
but we still need ACLs to control the granularity of the delegation
16:19:27 [bblfish]
I have the feeling that the capability issue stems from javascript running in the browsre in web pages
16:19:44 [bblfish]
but I don't think we have that issue with linked data.
16:19:57 [bblfish]
and we can partition data by moving to graphs.
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17:30:52 [presbrey]
timbl, the sparql issue
17:31:09 [presbrey]
with sending multiple queries in one body
17:31:28 [presbrey]
tabulator separates by semi-colon: INSERT ; DELETE
17:32:03 [presbrey]
what is the expected response?
17:32:43 [presbrey]
if the INSERT succeeds but the DELETE fails, what status code do you get?
17:34:08 [presbrey]
might be better to issue 2 requests
17:34:52 [presbrey]
also, none of the sparql libraries I've seen parse q_1;q_2;...;q_n
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17:35:15 [presbrey]
betehess, do you know banana/jena/... implementation on this?
17:35:32 [melvster]
http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-protocol/#update-urlencoded-multi
17:35:37 [melvster]
may be helpful
17:36:27 [melvster]
hmmm doesnt say much about response
17:36:31 [presbrey]
interesting
17:36:41 [presbrey]
this draft is pretty far off from tabulator's implementation
17:37:42 [betehess]
I would expect that to be run in a transaction, ending with an error
17:38:03 [melvster]
500 if the service fails to execute the query. SPARQL Protocol services may also return a 500 response code if they refuse to execute a query. This response does not indicate whether the server may or may not process a subsequent, identical request or requests.
17:38:03 [melvster]
A protocol service may use other 4XX or 5XX HTTP response codes for other failure conditions, as per HTTP.
17:38:14 [presbrey]
sparl11 draft is using eg. 'Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded
17:38:14 [presbrey]
' ??
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17:38:22 [presbrey]
what happened to application/sparql-query?
17:38:25 [melvster]
one option
17:38:29 [melvster]
that's also there
17:38:34 [melvster]
and sparql-update
17:38:49 [presbrey]
oh phew, ok :)
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17:40:59 [presbrey]
I don't see the word 'transaction' on the draft
17:43:38 [presbrey]
thats what I would expect too though
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20:48:01 [bblfish]
oh, now he thinks I am trolling http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webid/2012Sep/0160.html
20:48:13 [bblfish]
very difficult to argue with Ben Laurie
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21:28:22 [bblfish]
perhaps danbri with his super social powers can work out what is going on :-) I don't think we are far from a breakthrough
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