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16:38:13 <melvster> bblfish: re your question about rel="meta" it was michael hausenblas talking to mark nottingham about registering it, see the link on my previous post
16:39:10 <melvster> timbl: betehess suggested rel="acl", rather than, rel="meta" ... do you have any preference?
16:56:25 <danbri> is there a proposed definition for rel="meta"?
16:56:51 <danbri> we have it in http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#sec-autodesc because it seemed the most plausible at the time
17:04:08 <melvster> danbri: best info I have is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2010JanMar/0244.html
17:04:36 <melvster> mh said: Use case would be ACLs as described in [2] (see
17:04:36 <melvster> section 3.2)
17:04:51 <melvster> referring to : http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/Papers/ISWC/rdf-access-control/paper.pdf
17:05:40 <bblfish> melvster that mail by michael is from 2010. So clearly no action was taken
17:06:13 <bblfish> so no registration process was started. Can you perhaps clarify this? Your mail makes it sound like a process is going on right now.
17:06:43 <danbri> 'meta' is pretty weak, by design
17:06:49 <danbri> 'some info probably to do with this info'
17:07:12 <melvster> bblfish: sorry if i gave that impression but michael hausenblas began the process when he was at deri, there was some follow up, but im not sure where we are now
17:07:34 <bblfish> The process has to be completed in a few months as it says in the RFC
17:08:39 <melvster> maybe that's why it didnt become official, mh isnt at deri anymore
17:09:08 <melvster> in any case that was the previous history of this, the use case is written up in the ISWC paper
17:09:19 <bblfish> danbri: yes I think that is why betehess and others thought that a more precise acl relation would be better. An ACL is meta data about a resource true, but one could argue ACLs are very important for any resource.
17:10:12 <melvster> bblfish: which do you prefer acl or meta?  (or both)?
17:10:48 <melvster> i know that currently papers and some implementations use rel="meta" ... but changing this is a possibility
17:11:00 <bblfish> if you are going to go around the web fetching resources and determining access control, you want the data to be very relevant to that 
17:11:07 <bblfish> so I'd say more precise here is better
17:11:24 <bblfish> ie. acl is better 
17:11:30 <bblfish> rel="acl"
17:12:27 <bblfish> but presbrey's opinion here I think is important and so is Oshani's
17:12:40 <bblfish> and timbl's of course
17:15:14 <melvster> bblfish: i can see the advantages, and if someone wants to propose this, that's fine though I suggest it's important to gather consensus and/or register the link relation with IANA
17:15:50 <bblfish> that's what we are doing here :-)
17:16:15 <bblfish> trying to gather consensus. The missing parties are presbrey, and a few others....
17:16:50 <bblfish> Perhaps I'll edit the wiki later with votes from different people. 
17:17:02 <melvster> im opposed to voting
17:17:12 <bblfish> that's new
17:17:33 <bblfish> you used to push for voting a lot on the WebID mailing list
17:17:51 <bblfish> anyway, it's not anyone's vote that counts. Just implementers really
17:18:09 <bblfish> and votes are just there to get some feedback.
17:19:28 <melvster> bblfish: i got a lot reading pete resnick's consensus gathering process at the IETF ... they reject dictator and voting, but work on rough consensus and running code ... it's explained nicely here  .. the argument is that votes are too easily stuffed http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-resnick-on-consensus-02.txt
17:19:53 <bblfish> that's why I keep mentioning implementors
17:28:16 <melvster> bblfish: yes I agree that straw polls can be useful
17:31:37 <melvster> things have been working well with rel="meta" so far, if you or behetess wants to make the case to change it to "acl" that's also OK, but bear in mind that rel="meta" has been in the 'wild' for 4+ years, and we might not know everyone that has used the pattern
17:32:29 <melvster> i can see the advantages
17:51:59 <bblfish> ok, I added this http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl#rel.3Dacl_or_rel.3Dmeta.3F
17:54:45 <bblfish> anyway, it's more a question of getting a discussion going.
18:19:23 <melvster> bblfish: great, iirc rel=meta is mentioned somewhere in rdflib.js, tabulator, and rww.io ... i suspect toby's impl used that too, but that's just from vague memory
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19:54:30 <timbl> I think rel=meta is a better choice
19:54:41 <timbl> because we have running code which picks it up 
19:55:00 <timbl> and fragmenting the market does less damage.
19:56:32 <timbl> I can see also an ACL file having other stuff (like ownership, provenance, licence etc) and my gut feeling is that one flexible bad is better than trying to defined lots of ridid bags and al algorithm for what triples go in what.
19:56:45 <timbl> s/ridid/rigid/
19:57:04 <timbl> s/bad/bag/
20:19:21 <melvster> DIGlogger, pointer
20:19:21 <melvster> See http://dig.csail.mit.edu/irc/dig/2013-08-10#T20-19-21
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