IRC log of dig on 2010-12-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:22:25 [DIGlogger]
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topic is: Decentralized Information Group @ MIT http://dig.csail.mit.edu/
12:22:26 [niven.freenode.net]
Users on #dig: DIGlogger RalphS oshani IvanHerman danbri nunnun gbot30 webr3 mattl sandro drrho IPaparrizos ericP
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17:30:31 [oshani]
timbl, you might be interested in this: http://datawiki.googlelabs.com
17:30:46 [timbl]
hmmm
17:32:21 [Pipian_]
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17:36:23 [timbl]
well, tries and fails
17:38:44 [timbl]
Oh no
17:38:45 [timbl]
http://datawiki.googlelabs.com/wiki/Guestbook/91003
17:38:57 [timbl]
in XML
17:39:22 [timbl]
Maybe tabulator should assume all XML is like that
17:39:26 [timbl]
<Guestbook xmlns="http://datawiki.googlelabs.com/wiki/formats/Guestbook">
17:39:26 [timbl]
<name>Tim Bernes-Lee</name>
17:39:26 [timbl]
<latitude>42.361860</latitude>
17:39:26 [timbl]
<longitude>-71.091840</longitude>
17:39:27 [timbl]
<comment>Is this a real datawiki - does it support http://www.w3.org/ReadWriteLinkedData ?</comment>
17:39:27 [timbl]
</Guestbook>
17:41:25 [oshani]
yes, your comment is there
17:43:22 [Pipian_]
I'm writing an RDF converter for it now.
17:43:53 [timbl]
In what language?
17:45:12 [Pipian_]
RDF/XML first.
17:45:18 [Pipian_]
Oh
17:45:23 [Pipian_]
I mean server-side PHP first.
17:45:41 [Pipian_]
Client-side JS would work nicely if they have the right headers.
17:47:10 [webr3]
that's got to work over google tables surely?
17:48:58 [timbl]
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17:49:54 [webr3]
nope all java and using google's libs - having a closer look
17:51:33 [Pipian_]
It would probably be worthwhile
18:04:22 [Pipian_]
Having trouble fetching specific entries
18:04:23 [Pipian_]
Hm
18:11:17 [Pipian_]
I find it interesting that they mint a UUID/URN for the Atom feed entry ID
18:11:26 [Pipian_]
But this is not the same as the link
18:11:41 [Pipian_]
When I would expect the links to be equally unique
18:11:53 [Pipian_]
(And since they're dereferenceable, they'd be better.)
18:12:31 [Pipian_]
But you can't apply ?output=xml to the item URIs either.
18:12:38 [Pipian_]
(Only to the collection as a whole)
18:20:53 [webr3]
see: http://code.google.com/u/@UxVQQFJRABFCXAd%2B/?ca=260f19be98a9eb1122b10fc0dad2cdbc&aca=5a14e9d43aeaf1b2d7bea6af574030a3&cg=humo#
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18:58:36 [Pipian_]
http://www.telegraphis.net/data/datawiki/rdfxml.php?uri=http://datawiki.googlelabs.com/wiki/Guestbook
19:00:45 [Pipian_]
And there's the content-type header to work in Tabulator.
19:07:35 [mcherian]
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19:09:22 [mcherian]
presbrey, i didn't notice your note about missing boost libraries in the groups server until now
19:09:57 [mcherian]
can i get access to the dig.xvm server?
19:15:47 [presbrey]
sure
19:16:06 [presbrey]
or we could get TiG to install boost dev libraries
19:16:43 [mcherian]
i've been told that option is difficult
19:16:47 [mcherian]
politically
19:17:05 [presbrey]
ouch
19:17:06 [mcherian]
i don't mind trying..
19:17:32 [presbrey]
the dig.xvm machine doesn't handle compiles well
19:17:38 [presbrey]
I believe ericP already taxes it pretty hard
19:17:58 [presbrey]
but you are welcome to join in the fun
19:18:03 [mcherian]
k, i'll try talking to TIG first
19:18:53 [presbrey]
if you are just trying to run it there, should be all good and fine
19:19:09 [presbrey]
if you are actively developing swobjects internals, its probably not the best place
19:19:30 [mcherian]
i don't foresee compiling there too often
19:19:42 [mcherian]
i do all the development on my local machine
19:19:57 [mcherian]
so, what do i need to do to get access
19:20:01 [mcherian]
?
19:20:05 [presbrey]
you would need matching C, C++, and boost libraries to update the server
19:20:06 [presbrey]
I'll drop by in a few
19:20:12 [mcherian]
cool
19:20:24 [mcherian]
i'll be here
19:30:51 [pmy]
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19:30:54 [ericP]
presbrey, i've installed an x64 ubuntu on my (new) laptop so perhaps i can build and copy
19:32:14 [pmy]
hi, i'm pablo; nathan@web3r.org suggested i say hello here; i'm working on datawiki.googlelabs.com
19:36:51 [Pipian_]
Hello hello.
19:37:25 [Pipian_]
Stumbled upon that this morning and let the guys here know. (Unfortunately timbl and presbrey are out right now; they'd be most interested in talking with you)
19:37:39 [pmy]
cool, i'm pmy@google.com
19:38:15 [pmy]
interested to collaborate; datawiki is far from where i want it to be, but seemed like good enough for a labs launch
19:38:25 [Pipian_]
Neat. Yeah, some of us have been doing some work on Read-Write-Web/Linked Data stuff.
19:38:50 [Pipian_]
And it looks like you found timbl's comment in the Guestbook.
19:39:03 [pmy]
yeah, was that really him?
19:39:12 [Pipian_]
Yes, actually.
19:39:14 [pmy]
as you can see, i don't have much of an authentication system
19:40:18 [Pipian_]
Yes. I'll flag down one of the other guys who's working on this and let him know you're in here, but he's talking with someone else right now and may be a bit busy.
19:40:27 [pmy]
cool :)
19:41:28 [Pipian_]
http://www.telegraphis.net/data/datawiki/rdfxml.php
19:41:58 [Pipian_]
So I'm in the process of writing a converter which can at least read the collections and parse them to RDF, which is what we like to play with.
19:42:12 [Pipian_]
And I'm still in the process of writing up the documentation as you showed up.
19:42:22 [Pipian_]
But I do have a few comments I'd like to make in a moment once I finish this up.
19:42:31 [pmy]
wow
19:43:31 [pmy]
cool
19:44:32 [webr3]
pmy, hi :) glad to see you made it, presbrey has been working on a datawiki for quite some time @ http://data.fm/ and likewise timbl et al's project the tabulator http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/tab/ can be seen as pretty much the most advanced client there is
19:44:47 [webr3]
both are interop and fully read/write enabled
19:46:09 [mcherian]
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19:46:28 [webr3]
data.fm is webid enabled btw, which is a new stateless authentication protocol using client side certificates with an identifier in them (uri) which when looked up provides a full profile for the user in open data formats (rdf)
19:48:08 [pmy]
grabbing a cert now
19:49:00 [Pipian_]
There we go. Sorry about the wait
19:49:16 [Pipian_]
Just finished writing up my notes/comments thus far.
19:51:06 [pmy]
ok, i have an rdf cloud
19:51:09 [pmy]
http://pablo.data.fm/
19:51:26 [pmy]
i guess it's a restful endpoint?
19:52:15 [webr3]
yeah :)
19:52:35 [webr3]
mini client: http://webr3.org/apps/play/api/store
19:53:19 [webr3]
stick in the URI of a doc, good to use an RDF one then you can get multiple different formats via conneg, use my profile if you want: http://webr3.org/nathan
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19:53:39 [webr3]
then in the PUT, you'll want https://pablo.data.fm/filename
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19:55:08 [pmy]
interesting
19:55:53 [pmy]
Pipian, the writeup looks about right, though i do have some of those features underway
19:56:12 [pmy]
lemme clean up my issue tracker and i'll ping back in a few mins
19:56:18 [webr3]
so now you can do: http://pablo.data.fm/filename.rdf http://pablo.data.fm/filename.dot http://pablo.data.fm/filename.n3 http://pablo.data.fm/filename.svg etc to get different variants
19:56:25 [webr3]
or use accept header
19:56:45 [Pipian_]
Sure.
19:59:15 [presbrey]
hi
20:03:16 [presbrey]
is mcherian coming back?
20:03:25 [Pipian_]
I'll poke him
20:03:26 [Pipian_]
Hold on
20:03:39 [mcherian]
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20:03:40 [presbrey]
actually I see he already sent me the key via email
20:03:46 [presbrey]
I was just going to ask him for that
20:04:02 [mcherian]
back
20:04:06 [mcherian]
had to reboot
20:04:37 [presbrey]
mcherian, there is a planned outage tomorrow, Tuesday
20:04:51 [presbrey]
that affects tabulator.org + dig.xvm
20:05:07 [mcherian]
for how long?
20:05:36 [presbrey]
I'm not sure, definitely just 1 day. timbl forwarded the notice to diggers@csail.mit.edu
20:06:54 [presbrey]
ok see if you can login there, mcherian@dig.xvm
20:07:45 [mcherian]
it asks me for a password
20:08:19 [presbrey]
now?
20:08:33 [mcherian]
still
20:08:35 [presbrey]
now?
20:08:55 [mcherian]
same
20:09:41 [presbrey]
are you sure you are logging into xvm and not csail?
20:09:55 [mcherian]
ssh mcherian@dig.xvm.mit.edu
20:10:41 [presbrey]
ok one last try
20:10:51 [mcherian]
it works now
20:11:04 [presbrey]
great
20:11:08 [mcherian]
thanks
20:11:11 [presbrey]
so make a public_html folder there
20:11:25 [presbrey]
and I'll enable ~mcherian to point there
20:11:45 [mcherian]
just did
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20:13:57 [presbrey]
pmy, Pablo, we're very excited to see your data wiki project on google labs!
20:14:13 [presbrey]
do you have any plans to make it less RSSy and more RDFy?
20:16:17 [pmy]
hey, yeah; RDFy sounds good, though probably not less Atom/RSSy :)
20:16:53 [pmy]
one of the conversations that led to it was a desire to have a simple XML hub without requiring higher-level semantic web markup/support
20:17:22 [presbrey]
cool
20:17:31 [pmy]
will probably take a layered approach, a la IP/TCP
20:17:55 [presbrey]
what kind of revision history does 'wiki' entail, if any?
20:18:32 [pmy]
well, if the code.google.com team would let me use them as a backend.. :) i'd happily do full WebDAV semantics
20:18:54 [presbrey]
:)
20:19:27 [pmy]
initial target will be document-level write-once versioning, with history and revert (overwrite)
20:20:00 [presbrey]
sorry if my questions are naive, I have only just seen data wiki over Pipian_'s shoulder
20:20:15 [pmy]
no worries, probably no more naive than my implementation :)
20:20:32 [pmy]
the issues list is reasonable: http://code.google.com/p/datawiki/issues/list
20:20:42 [presbrey]
document-level write-once -- eg. you rewrite the whole guestbook every time someone signs it? each entry in the guestbook is its own document?
20:21:27 [pmy]
each entry is its own document, and the guestbook format is loosely coupled to the doc instances: all docs are valid on create, but can fall out of sync as the format evolves
20:21:52 [presbrey]
mcherian, I think its working: http://tabulator.org/~mcherian/
20:22:27 [Pipian_]
Well, that's not unlike what RDF boils down to in practice as schemas evolve.
20:23:46 [Pipian_]
I mean, the number of people using either foaf:surname or foaf:lastName instead of foaf:familyName...
20:24:20 [mcherian]
presbrey, when i try to access dig.xvm.mit.edu/~mcherian it says i don't have permission
20:24:21 [pmy]
right; i plan to make it easy to identify when a document doesn't match and be able to upgrade it, but that's a bit off
20:24:30 [mcherian]
same with tabulator.org/~mcherian
20:24:37 [Pipian_]
Well, an alternate idea would be
20:24:41 [presbrey]
mcherian, you need an index, eg. index.php, index.py
20:24:45 [presbrey]
even index.html
20:24:57 [Pipian_]
If it's possible to discover and understand previous versions of the format.
20:25:23 [Pipian_]
I find some <name> tag instead of <givenName> and <familyName>
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20:25:52 [Pipian_]
I mean, I would think that the schema itself could be version controlled as well.
20:26:41 [pmy]
yes, plan is both docs and formats versioned, and a document has a pointer to format version it was created with, so it's always possible to validate it with some format
20:26:47 [presbrey]
mcherian, I stashed a hello world there for you
20:28:14 [mcherian]
thanks
20:29:22 [Pipian_]
I know that schema versioning is a bit of a tricky beast
20:29:47 [Pipian_]
Meanings of both fields can change from version to version, even if the field names don't.
20:34:09 [pmy]
indeed; standards are usually arbitrated at length by technical experts; opening it up to the crowd and obscuring the tech minutia will cause lots of problems that i'm not yet aware of :)
20:36:16 [pmy]
thanks, i'll ping him
20:38:24 [mcherian]
presbrey, do you have yapps installed?
20:40:23 [presbrey]
yapps? from yapet?
20:41:41 [mcherian]
yet another python parser - i am not sure if it is related to yapet
20:41:47 [mcherian]
don't worry - i can copy it over as well
20:41:52 [presbrey]
go for it
20:42:37 [mcherian]
also, can you give me a pointer to the apache error log for dig.xvm?
20:42:53 [presbrey]
standard place
20:42:57 [presbrey]
/var/log/httpd/error_log
20:43:12 [mcherian]
k, cool
20:43:14 [mcherian]
thanks
20:45:08 [presbrey]
I could not find your fizz, sparql parser
20:45:09 [mcherian]
i don't have permissions to access /var/log/httpd
20:45:23 [mcherian]
fyzz
20:45:29 [mcherian]
i haven't put it there yet
20:45:30 [presbrey]
try again
20:46:33 [presbrey]
tail /var/log/httpd/error_log
20:46:40 [mcherian]
http://www.logilab.org/project/fyzz
20:47:02 [mcherian]
works now
20:51:56 [pmy]
hey guys, have to run out for a while.. i'll be implementing features for the rest of the week and will probably prioritize some of the isses from the RDF/XML doc, so thanks for the feedback!
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23:32:24 [oshani]
Options +ExecCGI
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23:43:24 [mcherian]
presbrey, i have copied over fyzz and essential parts of yapps
23:44:02 [mcherian]
all i need right now are updated versions of SWObjects.py and _SWObjects.so